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Azuarc  





Joined: 18 Jul 2006
Posts: 1389
Location: Philadelphia

PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2006 9:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh obviously. A face-off elimination tournament is going to take N-1 matches if you have N people. If you've got 64 people, as in March Madness, it takes 63 rounds to find the winner. You don't have time for that many rounds, and certainly not if you play multiple songs per round.

What I might consider doing:

Look at the scores on this site, and write down what the 100th, 200th, ...900th (or whatever) place score on each song is, and then award points based on those cut-offs. Make sure the points table is on clear display beforehand so people can't think they're getting gypped. With this sort of system, one might even be able to get away with having people play different songs.

Example:

I Love Rock and Roll (expert):
10 points - 134,671
9 points - 133,241
8 points - 131, 321
7 points - 127,586
6 points - 123,523
5 points - 114,399
4 points - 103,601
3 points - 91,964
2 points - 76,588
1 point - simply finishing


Some adjustment necessary, but you might be able to make this fair. (I'd also round the numbers a little.)
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Cliff  





Joined: 06 May 2006
Posts: 3002
Location: Springfield, IL

PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2006 10:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Pretty much everything Azuarc said.


::blink, blink::

That's just crazy enough to work! But how would you do different difficulties? Would there just be one tier of competition for each difficulty, or would everyone have to play expert? You could just have the prizes for lower-difficulty tiers be less desireable than the prizes for a more difficult one.
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Sephi  





Joined: 09 Jun 2006
Posts: 454
Location: Albuquerque, NM

PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2006 10:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Much less worthy than the expert prizes!
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Cliff  





Joined: 06 May 2006
Posts: 3002
Location: Springfield, IL

PostPosted: Fri Aug 11, 2006 2:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gold for experts, handshakes for others!
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Azuarc  





Joined: 18 Jul 2006
Posts: 1389
Location: Philadelphia

PostPosted: Sat Aug 12, 2006 4:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't know how big your tournaments get. I would be of the assumption that if you did different difficulties, you probably wouldn't get too many on each level. So I think I'd be more inclined to make each difficulty out of different point values. For example, you could ace a song on easy, and it might only be worth 3 points. (Med 5, Hard 7, or something like that.)

I can see how this might get some people upset that they don't have a chance against the big guns, but you're supposed to see who's best, so I dunno. Could go either way, I guess.
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supremelord  





Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Posts: 520
Location: Minneapolis, MN

PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 4:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was thinking to myself earlier how to improve upon the weekly guitar hero contest that we had going this summer, and reading this thread has really helped. Here is another idea to throw out there, it is kind of based off of some of the more recent suggestions.

A lot of the theories right now involved having set scores/percentages/etc. beforehand. I dont think that is necessarily something that is needed. Let's say that you have a tourny with 12 people (or more, lower numbers are most difficult with this method). Each person plays a song of their choosing (difficulty should probably be a constant, but I'm not sure about that), and the scorekeeper writes down the score and the percentage. Rankings are determined for both sets, and then they are averaged to determine an overall ranking. For example

Player 1 gets a score of 245,000 and 98%
Player 2 gets a score of 251,000 and 97%
Player 3 gets a score of 248,000 and 99% (he missed the last note)
Player 4 gets a score of 260,000 and 100%

In this scenario, Player 4 is the obvious top seed, Player 3 is the second seed (3rd and 2nd, 2.5 average), Player 2 (2nd and 4th, 3 average) and then Player 1 (4th and 3rd, 3.5 average). Once rankings are established, some players are eliminated (or not, depending on people), matches are determined (highest seed vs lowest seed, and so on). Each match is 2 songs, with each player getting to choose 1, and to move on you need to get 3 of the 4 points. A tiebreaker for 2-2 matches would have to be made, perhaps let the top seed choose either highest single song percentage or highest single song score. Winner moves on.

I like this style because it adds lots of small victories. I tournies where you need to hit certain scores, if you know you cant do that then it really saps the fun out of it. But if you are constantly going head to head with somebody, then that adds more excitement. Plus, there is a lot more strategy involved in song choice. Do you pick BATM and get 375,000 but only mid 90's in percentage, or pick something easier and hope for 100%? I'm sure you all will find many flaws with this setup, but it is just another idea.
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Sephi  





Joined: 09 Jun 2006
Posts: 454
Location: Albuquerque, NM

PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2006 1:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The only problem that I've seen with certain set-ups like yours is the complexity. In my opinion, I don't think that their should be so much actions to determine who wins. In the example above where you break each song into point values based on point ranges, then you have to do a LOT of research and work just to set up to tournament for playing.
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silencer  





Joined: 07 Jun 2006
Posts: 93
Location: Orlando, FL

PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2006 8:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was actually thinking about this topic the other day..

Since you want quite a few competitors, have both a Medium and an Expert group where players cannot participate in the other. Force them to decide if they're good enough to compete in Expert or if they had better play it safe and stay in Medium. Having a group for all 4 difficulties would thin the groups too much, and those that can play Hard well at least have a chance to be competitive in Expert. The prizes for Expert difficulty will be worth much more than Medium to encourage skilled players to join the challenge in Expert.

Since GH points are based heavily on star power, which leaves the first players up at a huge disadvantage, drop points down in importance. This will also help the weaker players in expert pass the songs since they can use the star power in difficult areas such as solos instead of the optimal star path (which they probably wouldn't know anyway). Accuracy is stressed in this format.

The following is when there are more than 4 players remaining:

The first song is randomly selected from Tier #1, and players are eliminated for:
- Failing to pass the song.
- Not reaching a set % of notes hit (such as 80%).
- Players not in the top 16 of % of notes hit. If rank 14-20 all have the same %, they continue to the next round. No tie-breakers.. yet.

This round is more for a warm-up and weed-out song, and not for head to head competition.

The second song is randomly selected from Tier #2/3, and players are eliminated for:
- Failing to pass the song.
- All players not in the top 8 of % of notes hit. If rank 8-12 all have the same %, they continue to the next round.

The third song is randomly selected from Tier #4/5, and players are eliminated for:
- Failing to pass the song.
- All players not in the top 4 of % of notes hit. However, a tiebreaker of note streak is in use (In the event that is also a tie, score is the final tiebreaker).

The 4 top players remain.

A random Tier #6 song is played by all. The 4 players are then ranked by % of notes hit, with note streak used as a tiebreaker.
Match #1: Rank #1 picks any unplayed song to play against Rank #4
Match #2: Rank #2 picks any unplayed song to play against Rank #3
Note: No song can ever be repeated throughout the tournament (Rank #2 cannot pick #1's song).
The winners of the two matches then go head-to-head for 3 songs. Match #1 winner selects the first, Match #2 winner selects the second. Now both songs are played both both players, with final screen stats recorded. If one player has a higher % of notes hit on both songs, they win. Otherwise, a random song is selected (if the two players are extremely good, the song much be difficult in % of notes hit)
Now compare all three songs. Either they have tied each other in all 3 with % of notes hit, or one player has a song (or two) higher (he/she wins). If they tied all three songs, compare note streaks in all three. In the very rare chance that one player beats the other in one song, then loses another, but tie in the 3rd, the player with the highest % in that tied song wins (there is a chance that song was won by a certain player), with score being the tiebreaker.

Wow, okay. This format is scalable - rounds can be expanded or eliminated by increasing/decreasing cutoff players by a value of 2, and increasing/decreasing the number of tiers that songs are randomly selected from. Also, the format is fair for GH1 since star power does not come into play for score - one player can watch the other without gaining an advantage other than simply seeing the song itself. It may seem a little complex, but this is my ideal version to be flexible for the number of entries in the tournament - it can be simplified based on the number of players.
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Cliff  





Joined: 06 May 2006
Posts: 3002
Location: Springfield, IL

PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2006 8:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good except:

silencer wrote:
The first song is randomly selected from Tier #1 ... The top 16 move on.


I'm not hearing ILRR more than 16 times without a handgun nearby.
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Sephi  





Joined: 09 Jun 2006
Posts: 454
Location: Albuquerque, NM

PostPosted: Wed Aug 16, 2006 10:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I never really considered note percentage to be a viable way of comparing players. I guess that does change a lot of strategy, etc. I'll ponder on that one.
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Azuarc  





Joined: 18 Jul 2006
Posts: 1389
Location: Philadelphia

PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2006 1:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The thing I don't like about note percentages is that one player can mess up 6 times in various parts of the song - genuine screw-ups, but only one note each - and then someone else can play everything perfectly, except at some point their fingers get on the wrong buttons and they miss 3 chords before they get themselves fixed up, and both players have the exact same percentage. The first player made 6 mistakes, the second made 1. Their scores reflect this, but their percentage doesn't.

(Similar things can happen in sections where there's a lot of fast and/or tricky notes. Think of the triplets at the end of Ziggy Stardust, for example.)
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silencer  





Joined: 07 Jun 2006
Posts: 93
Location: Orlando, FL

PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2006 4:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Azuarc wrote:
The thing I don't like about note percentages is that one player can mess up 6 times in various parts of the song - genuine screw-ups, but only one note each - and then someone else can play everything perfectly, except at some point their fingers get on the wrong buttons and they miss 3 chords before they get themselves fixed up, and both players have the exact same percentage. The first player made 6 mistakes, the second made 1. Their scores reflect this, but their percentage doesn't.

(Similar things can happen in sections where there's a lot of fast and/or tricky notes. Think of the triplets at the end of Ziggy Stardust, for example.)


I'm sorry but missing 3 chords is still worse than a minor mistake. With fingers on the wrong positions in a solo, you're far more likely to miss more than the 6 notes you'd miss in the chord scenario. That's like saying missing one chord is the same as missing one note, but it clearly isn't. How should missing two separate notes be any different from missing one chord? Quick recovery is important - after all, this is about accuracy.. this format benefits the skilled player who can pull off quick sections and solos, not the one who can hit all the easier notes in a row and use optimal star power, but blow on the difficult parts of songs.

And in this case, if they both end up with the same % of notes hit, it is highly likely that the player who missed the chords in a row has a much higher note streak - which is the tiebreaker.

Regardless, there won't be a format everyone will agree on because of star power paths. Ideally, I'd prefer a competition based on score but without the use of star power.. but that's fairly hard to enforce. Basing the ranks on % of notes hit is more fair than anything based on star power when one player has to go first and they are similar in skill level.

Another benefit to this scoring system is no one knows who's going to win until the final screen appears - keeping the suspense until the song is completely finished. With score-based ranks, it's easy to gauge if you'll come close to a certain point level before the song is up.
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