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Community vs Trogdor: Progress thread
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LocalH  





Joined: 30 Oct 2006
Posts: 1400
Location: MiloHax

PostPosted: Sat Jan 09, 2016 6:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So I guess nobody's ever going to get this song...

PS2 TASing still sucks balls so that avenue of proof is useless. If tma or anyone else continues work on a bot, it should sync to the game by detecting the vertical blank pulses in the video (composite would wotk for this, as would luma from s-video or component, and possibly slight modification could be done to the system to extract raw Vsync).
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Peachfanclub  





Joined: 02 Nov 2011
Posts: 884
Location: Switch Cartridge / State of Hockey

PostPosted: Sun Jan 10, 2016 7:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Are people still trying to FC this song on NTSC? And are they going for Hard or Expert, given that they're basically both equally impossible?
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LocalH  





Joined: 30 Oct 2006
Posts: 1400
Location: MiloHax

PostPosted: Sun Jan 10, 2016 9:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I haven't heard of anyone trying in a while. Aren't the relevant sections identical between H/X?
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Sixstringcal  





Joined: 17 May 2016
Posts: 40

PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2016 4:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was able to read until about page 12 before my mind stopped and I started skimming and 13 (maybe 14) before stopping. I personally believe it is FCable on NTSC. I will likely waste my life trying to FC it on XBox. But with these bots, I think I have a way to sync it correctly. The bot should be turned on by a human in the pause menu after the song has been started. There should be the same amount of time EVERY TIME (or at least OFTEN) from confirmed reset to chart starting. I believe this because I don't remember there being a loading screen from resetting in the middle of a song and at this point it should remain the same. The only difference should be maybe when a frame starts? But, If a bot were continually running with this concept in mind, I don't think that this should take more than a few hours to prove which I believe to be worth it. If I had a spare controller, I would try it myself. Do we have bots for both Xbox and PS2? I really don't want to read another 10 pages of this when most of it is just numbers, math, etc that I can't apply to a human run.

If nobody has an Xbox bot or if everyone is sick of trying, I will try, because I want to see it happen. Are guitar controllers being used for this or standard ps2/xbox360 controllers? I have experience with arduino, if that works best. I can also program in a few other languages if computer input is better.
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UndeadFil13QC  





Joined: 12 Nov 2007
Posts: 3386
Location: Montreal, QC, Canada

PostPosted: Mon Aug 15, 2016 1:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I figured I might as well post this here since this thread seems to be bigger and has quite its load of relevant information. This might be the closest thing we have to a number for the strum limit.

AbyssionQC, in the RGC Facebook group, wrote:
So I ended up spending A LOT of time testing stuff on PCSX2 and analysed the fuck out GH2's strum limit. What I did is run the game at 10% speed while keeping the emulator at a framerate of 60 and 100 (did several tests). At first I did standard strumming 20nps at 10% speed while running 60fps and recording 60fps but didn't trust the accuracy so I went 100fps and used an autokey to register 100 inputs per second and recorded the video at 100fps. Same results on both (16ms difference si negligible) after a dozen of tests with different settings. The 2 lowest results (who also happen to be the average result, hardly any variations) were 53.33ms and 55ms. Those 2 numbers which are basically the same thing represent the amount of time before the game will register a new strum. The strum limit is a set amount of time and not based on the FPS, as opposed to what most people thought (before you disagree, keep reading). It means that you can register one strum every ~54.16ms which gives a theoretical strum limit of 18.18~18.75nps (18.5nps if you use the average 54.16ms). Now, that seems like a very believable number but at the same time it's still too high to be true, why? Well, that's where the FPS comes into play. On NTSC, the game runs at 60FPS which, it means that the game theoretically draw one frame every 16.66ms. Using the the average as the most accurate result (54ms), it means that the game would allow a new input every ~3.24 frames which cannot be done, leading to one stream every 4 frames or 15nps. The limit is a lot closer to 16nps than 15nps though so why would the limit be 15? The only explanation to this is a variation in FPS, frames aren't drawn at a perfectly still timing, there's always variations, some frames can be drawn slower and some faster (bouncy FPS). Since it only takes a 5FPS drop to put the 3.24 frames number under 3 (55FPS is 2.97), it's very logical to believe that extra inputs would make their way just because of how close the numbers are to the actual limit. Now going for PAL, the amount of frames required to hit 54.16ms is only ~2.71 frames, meaning that you can register one strum every 3 frames. Unlike NTSC, the number is a lot closer to the higher number than the lower, meaning that slight FPS variations would hardly ever affect the limit since you would need 56FPS to lower the strum limit (3.02) and 36FPS to increase it (1.95). This give a strum limit of 16.6nps for PAL which is pretty much the number people originally estimated. There, GH2 strum limit explained as best as possible. Unfortunately it doesn't tell whether or not Trogdor NTSC is humanly possible lmao. It's pretty apparent that it can be done but there's a clear RNG factor to this.

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Sixstringcal  





Joined: 17 May 2016
Posts: 40

PostPosted: Mon Aug 15, 2016 7:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So does this mean that instead of needing to precisely imprecise you just need luck and precise strumming?
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UndeadFil13QC  





Joined: 12 Nov 2007
Posts: 3386
Location: Montreal, QC, Canada

PostPosted: Mon Aug 15, 2016 9:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sixstringcal wrote:
So does this mean that instead of needing to precisely imprecise you just need luck and precise strumming?


That would mean precisely imprecise AND extremely lucky. As mentioned the game does not register every strum if you go above the 15 NPS limit, so you have to stay as close as possible to the limit while abusing the timing window as much as possible. Pretty tricky if you ask me.

An alternative would be to find a way to strum at about 90 NPS so you would be sure (or not?) to have at least a strum register on every frame that allows it, but hey, not like that's going to happen, right?
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ULTIMATE GOAL: FC Im The One on GH: Van Halen Expert Guitar
Solo 2A FC Count: 39 (Best runs: many -1s, three outro chokes and two 100% overstrums!)

Side goals: GH Expert Vocals Full Series FC [4/8] | Rock Band Expert Bass Full Series FC [8/9] | COVID Vaccine & Booster 100% FC [4/4]


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Sixstringcal  





Joined: 17 May 2016
Posts: 40

PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2016 4:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Would you say it could happen without trying to be precisely imprecise? Just by trying to be mostly precise and way more chance? Or could this precisely imprecise strumming be learned? I think it would be cool to learn it (if I understood how it went because they chart and timings mentioned are hard for me to translate into real strumming).

Also fr my understanding of what was said in that Facebook thing, maybe you could find a monitor with really low fps to raise the strum limit? Or would that ruin the purpose of an NTSC FC?
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UndeadFil13QC  





Joined: 12 Nov 2007
Posts: 3386
Location: Montreal, QC, Canada

PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2016 5:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sixstringcal wrote:
Would you say it could happen without trying to be precisely imprecise? Just by trying to be mostly precise and way more chance? Or could this precisely imprecise strumming be learned? I think it would be cool to learn it (if I understood how it went because they chart and timings mentioned are hard for me to translate into real strumming).

Also fr my understanding of what was said in that Facebook thing, maybe you could find a monitor with really low fps to raise the strum limit? Or would that ruin the purpose of an NTSC FC?


EDIT: snip, here's a video that kinda explains how things were tested out.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vljstgILsog

So basically strum inputs are registered every 4 frames, and sometimes every 3 frames if you're lucky, because of FPS fluctuation. So the strum limit itself fluctuates quite a bit, as you can clearly see in the video during the orange streak. So perfect precision will most likely not work, and the best way around would be inhumanly fast strumming (we're talking something like 200 NPS which would basically destroy the guitar) so I guess it's a nope.
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ULTIMATE GOAL: FC Im The One on GH: Van Halen Expert Guitar
Solo 2A FC Count: 39 (Best runs: many -1s, three outro chokes and two 100% overstrums!)

Side goals: GH Expert Vocals Full Series FC [4/8] | Rock Band Expert Bass Full Series FC [8/9] | COVID Vaccine & Booster 100% FC [4/4]


47|64|30|70|41|86|49|48|85|46|93|42 (10|65|10)
Full Series Total: 701/702 (786/787)
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Naruto42  





Joined: 13 Dec 2008
Posts: 1289

PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2016 8:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sixstringcal wrote:
Would you say it could happen without trying to be precisely imprecise? Just by trying to be mostly precise and way more chance? Or could this precisely imprecise strumming be learned? I think it would be cool to learn it (if I understood how it went because they chart and timings mentioned are hard for me to translate into real strumming).


It can happen with a lot of chance, it can't be learned, because in one run the game might register frames 1, 5 and 9 in the solo, and in your next run frames 1, (FPS drop) 4 and 8.
That's what is RNG, FPS fluctuations makes every run different, as in the game will not register the same frames. So if you do EXACTLY the same strum in 2 different runs, you might FC it in only one of the runs.
As such, in order to learn the strumming, you would need to know where you will have FPS drop, which is impossible (unless emulator I guess).

Sixstringcal wrote:
Also fr my understanding of what was said in that Facebook thing, maybe you could find a monitor with really low fps to raise the strum limit? Or would that ruin the purpose of an NTSC FC?


That's an interesting question, I'm quite sad Undead didn't see it :p
I think it wouldn't ruin it, just make it a little easier, now can it work I don't know...

BTW can I enter RGC Facebook group pls ?
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UltraHeroABC5  





Joined: 25 Sep 2011
Posts: 1382
Location: Canada

PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2016 9:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naruto, I pmed you with the link to the RGC FB group, just request and someone will accept.
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ThunderShade  





Joined: 12 Jun 2008
Posts: 349
Location: Scotland

PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2016 3:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A thought I just had: is it possible to bypass the strum limit with a normal controller? Now the possibility of hitting 17+ nps strumming on a controller is questionable, but it might be possible (and I believe considered legal) to use a drum controller, in which case this would definitely be possible. (Also the thought of a co-op drum FC amuses me to no end)

Also, I'm not 100% convinced by Abyssion's explanation. The issue I have with it is that I don't see how it explains different speeds in practice mode. In particular, I tried to play with the numbers but just couldn't see why under that explanation we would get that PAL Slow is way harder than NTSC Slow.
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Naruto42  





Joined: 13 Dec 2008
Posts: 1289

PostPosted: Thu Oct 06, 2016 10:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ThunderShade wrote:
The issue I have with it is that I don't see how it explains different speeds in practice mode. In particular, I tried to play with the numbers but just couldn't see why under that explanation we would get that PAL Slow is way harder than NTSC Slow.


Yup, the practice speeds are a complete mystery. We need detective Abyssion to investigate for the other speeds.

I've only ever tried Slowest tbh (PAL) but I couldn't get a good streak. How do you know PAL Slow is harder than NTSC Slow? How would you rank PAL speeds on difficulty? The faster the harder or not lol
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ThunderShade  





Joined: 12 Jun 2008
Posts: 349
Location: Scotland

PostPosted: Thu Oct 06, 2016 11:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naruto42 wrote:
ThunderShade wrote:
The issue I have with it is that I don't see how it explains different speeds in practice mode. In particular, I tried to play with the numbers but just couldn't see why under that explanation we would get that PAL Slow is way harder than NTSC Slow.


Yup, the practice speeds are a complete mystery. We need detective Abyssion to investigate for the other speeds.

I've only ever tried Slowest tbh (PAL) but I couldn't get a good streak. How do you know PAL Slow is harder than NTSC Slow? How would you rank PAL speeds on difficulty? The faster the harder or not lol

I can't give a ranking, but a long time ago the topic of PAL Slow being impossible came up. Preb had a vid (here it is) where he tried a lot to hit it to no avail. Also I can hit NTSC Slow without that much difficulty, yet when I tried PAL Slow it was hopeless.
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Sixstringcal  





Joined: 17 May 2016
Posts: 40

PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2016 12:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well something I just noticed is my cheap capture device (easycap) captures around 29 FPS. I don't know if it has to do with the system outputting it, or if the ps2 or xbox 360 can figure that out and output fewer FPS. I'm gonna try it. If this works, I will be happy. I'll try on both Xbox and PS2.
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