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snowyporpoise
Joined: 17 Jul 2008
Posts: 1655
Location: Burlington, ON
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 Posted: Sun Feb 06, 2011 6:41 pm Post subject: |
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Also, it's really a matter of perspective. We find living to 595 years odd because we live to like 120-140 at MOST. While, in their time, that would be like dying at 10-25 years old. |
Whaatttt????!?!
1) the average lifespan of a person today is around 80, and the oldest ever was around 120. Where the hell are you getting 120-140?
2) Without modern medicine people lived around age 30-40 2000 years ago, not wayyyy longer than we do now. What in the name of fuck are you talking about when you say they lived longer?
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PiemanLK
Joined: 03 Dec 2007
Posts: 4711
Location: /export/home
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| Posted: Sun Feb 06, 2011 6:43 pm Post subject: |
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| voidedalive2x wrote: | | Also, it's really a matter of perspective. We find living to 595 years odd because we live to like 120-140 at MOST. While, in their time, that would be like dying at 10-25 years old. |
So what happened that shrunk these peoples' life expectancies from 600 to 80? Kryptonite?
| Yewb wrote: | | Also, Pieman... semen can totes get past the hymen. Just saying. |
Yes, some hymens partially cover the vagina, but aiming into the vagina with your penis and getting semen far enough up the birth canal to knock someone up would be about as difficult as firing a proton torpedo into the middle of the Death Star.
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[quote=''Otend'']Id come up with a long post, but Pieman said what we are all thinking, as usual[/quote]
[quote=''youhas'']EDIT TO ADD: Hey, post #3000! Neat! I will eagerly anticipate my set of ScoreHero-branded steak knives within six to eight weeks.[/quote]
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Yewb 
Joined: 10 Jan 2008
Posts: 3020
Location: Plymouth, UK
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| Posted: Sun Feb 06, 2011 6:47 pm Post subject: |
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Virgin pregnancies do happen, phenomenally rarely in humans (supposedly less rarely in some mammals, but humans are the ones who lie about it) and pretty often resulting in SA or stillbirth, but they do. Moot point though, since most Christians tend to argue the whole 2DEEP4U angle with the virgin birth anyway.
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| expertwin wrote: | | ShadoWolf wrote: | | expertwin wrote: | | I just want to, you know, get my name out there. BTW, it updates every Thursday, Friday, and Saturday. Was just the first two, decided to do Saturdays as well. |
Serious advice now: No-one likes indecision in their work, so find what you like that you're even remotely good at, and stick with it. Don't flit from one thing to another, because that just smacks of a large lack of determination and drive. And people don't like you for that, and won't remember you for it. I mean, I get that you have a plucky spirit and a willingness to try new things, but there's a limit, man. |
I might knock it down to just Thursday and Friday. |
| JOE2210 wrote: | | Leave me alone, I have been drinking and your made up words mean nothing to me. |
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voidedalive2x 
Joined: 29 May 2008
Posts: 7922
Location: jefferson city, MO
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| Posted: Sun Feb 06, 2011 8:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Shikka wrote: | | voidedalive2x wrote: | | So you automatically disregard it because of a human middleman (or middlemen)? |
No I disregard it because of everything else I mentioned. The fact that it was written by humans does not help the book at all. |
Does the fact that most music has to be published through an intermediate source hurt the music or the band, necessarily?
| Shikka wrote: | | voidedalive2x wrote: | | It never said he was "just kidding". It was a supreme test of faith to see if Abraham (still called Abram at the time, I think) would carry out what was necessecary, even if it meant killing his own son. Would I agree that it seems extreme? I can certainly see that. However, if Abraham was going to fall away at such a sacrifice as this, how could God trust him not to fall away at an even greater test? |
I believe this has been covered already earlier in the thread. First of all its a cruel thing to order someone to kill their child. Second, there's no need for the test since god is omniscient. |
It may be cruel, indeed, but if you are willing to proceed and believe that through it all God will provide, then you may be rest assured all will be fine.
Also, God's omniscience is not what's being questioned here. what's being questioned is Abraham's faith in God.
| Shikka wrote: | | voidedalive2x wrote: | | You find these things odd? |
And you don't? Name a person outside the bible that lived 600 years. |
Like I said, it is more like a matter of perspective. Or perhaps they might have counted years differently than us <_<. I don't know exactly.
| Shikka wrote: | | voidedalive2x wrote: | He explicitly told Adam and Eve not to eat the fruit, just like we're often told by parents not to touch certain objects or go certain places. If we do what we are asked, we are rewarded, as A&E certainly would have. If we do not, punishment surely follows.
And if A&E created the first documented case of sin by eating the fruit, it essentially planted a seed of sin in their descendants, destroying the harmony they had with God, and that harmony would not be regained until Jesus' second coming.
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I'm just saying that I should not be punished by this almighty god for something my ancestors did. I could also bring up the fact that he didn't have to create the tree in the first place. |
A&E sinned through believing a lie by the serpent that was directly against God's word. If the serpent (aka Satan) could decieve the first man and woman, he can (and did) decieve their descendants. That is what has carried down through to us.
And never be sure that we would stay with him? We may have been created in his image, but that does not mean we have to always obey his word, even though we should. And that is what caused our first fall.
| Shikka wrote: | | voidedalive2x wrote: | | are we in Exodus now? Just checking. |
The Great flood and Noah's ark yes. |
That's Genesis. -_-
Anyways, the Great Flood came about because of all the apostate things happening between man on earth and beings in heaven (not necessarily angels). As such, and also because men of the time had no intention whatsoever of stopping their acts, he had to sweep them away.
| Shikka wrote: | | voidedalive2x wrote: | And you don't think Sodom and Gomorrah deserved it?
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Based on what I read, no. Especially since god was begged to spare the city if there was even an ounce of good in the city. But the angel decided they were all evil based on the actions of a small group of extremely horny men. |
I may be misreading, but it's said--if not implied--that the entire city was like this.
And Abraham's reasons for asking for an increasingly smaller number of good people was to see how far God's grace would go.
| Shikka wrote: | | voidedalive2x wrote: | Jesus is essentially God himself, sent down to act as a intermediary to allow us to bypass the original sin that kept us (us humans and God) apart for so long and allow that harmony that existed in the first couple of chapters in Genesis to be reborn. Jesus is, in essence, the final burnt offering for humankind. His ressurection is simply proof that this is going to happen, and his second coming will again reaffirm this.
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My argument to this is why does he have to essentially kill himself to forgive humans. Why can't he just wave his hand and forgive us without the use of a burned sacrifice. Hell why even use sacrifices in the first place. What the hell is god doing with all of them? |
Well, if you had bothered to read most of the end of Exodus and Leviticus, the wages of sin is essentially our death. The sacrifices are a way for us to pay for our sins without dying ourselves. this is the overriding purpose of the Burnt Offering. Jesus acts as the final Burnt Offering, the last pure Sacrificial Lamb, to allow us to atone for our sins once and for all, and be with him again in glory.
Snowy: I thought someone had already lived to be over 134? Some Asian guy, I think.
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LlamaYip
Joined: 23 Dec 2008
Posts: 3151
Location: Chicago, IL
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| Posted: Sun Feb 06, 2011 8:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Shikka wrote: | | You see, this is one of the major reasons I don't really believe in the bible. How am I supposed to believe this was god-inspired when humans wrote it? Am I just supposed to take their word for it? That they didn't just make it all up or at least extremely exaggerate parts of it for whatever reason? The rest of the post was well thought out. It still doesn't make sense but it was well thought out. |
I'll elaborate on what I said, because there's a lot of stuff that "Humans wrote it rather than God" connotes that I didn't really even both to mention.
Throughout the entire Bible, there's only one passage that God himself writes, and those are the Ten Commandments; Exodus 20;1-19, I think (remember, whenever I pull out verses, it's from memory so if I get some verses off a bit, Im sorry about that). God himself physically wrote ON the tablets the Ten Commandments which he gave to Moses. Just by coming in contact with God, these tablets hold some founded glorious power within them, and I'm not just talking about the authority of the law inscribed upon them. These tablets have to be held within an ark and no one not carrying them can be within 2000 cubits of the ark. In 1 Samuel, the ark is captured by several different cities, but it brings curse and ruin on some level to each and every one of them. In Indiana Jones, the ark melts the Nazis' faces off (half-joke)! Anyways, what I'm saying is that this thing which God directly wrote himself holds so much literal power, a book purely written by him would be almost impossible to handle. Also, being 'God-inspired' means that it is inspired. If it were God-written, then it would be 'God-written'. (I hate screwing up my wording haha)
In a more general sense about 'understanding' the Bible (which now I see that when you say understanding the Bible, it appears that you're simply talking about anything outside the scope of possibility in our own experiences, so I'll talk about that when I get to the rest of your post) there has to be some room for interpretation because for these teachings to be able to transcend centuries, readers have to be able to determine what application the scripture holds to their life. This is a very important job of priests in the Christian faith. Because the Bible is written so well in this way, it has endured time and still remains relevant (for a large part). You can thank God's inspiration for that. 
Now, because there is room for this interpretation, there requires the critical thinking and reasoning of what scripture tells. Glancing over text and deciding that it's too hard to understand disallows anything more to occur. Parables and allegories are extremely effective because they show how God plays roles in the lives of people on Earth, including you, I, and everyone else in the world. Flat out law is hard to interpret deeply (e.g., Deuteronomy, but I explained all of that in my first post on this page).
I wanted to write a lot more on that subject but that's the nutshell that I'm able to provide.
| Shikka wrote: | | Anyway, I'm currently reading the bible right now. I'm more of an atheist now than when I started and I'm only 311 pages in. It's taking a while because it is a very boring book. I personally believe that Christians are reading a very different book than I am. |
I sincerely applaud you for reading the Bible; even if you don't accept it as legitimate in the message that it brings, it is still a very influential and brilliant piece of literature, and countless stories throughout the book provide many lessons anyways. As I said before, the style, being older, is much more dense at times since language has evolved a long time since the Bible was compiled; but for comparisons' sake, the Bible is a whole heck of a lot easier to understand that Shakespeare (which isn't that bad either). The vocabulary in the Bible isn't extremely complicated at all and minute details come few and far between; almost every sentence provides important information. However, I assure you that you are indeed reading the same Bible are Christians, although the edition you have may be different and some verses might vary in word choice (I remember a couple verses that Fugitive used were from an older King James edition, and none of the four Bibles in my house matched those verses), but it's still the Bible.
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Now I'll go more into detail in each of the things that you listed; there are two patterns I see in everything you listed; These are very simple and surface-level summaries of each story (nonetheless, true in each bit that they are presented), and each thing isn't possible in our own realm of physical understanding of the world. This is God we're talking about. I'll mention it more later, but God isn't a human trying to set everything in motion. God is all existence.
| Shikka wrote: | | Already in no particular order, there's a story about god testing Abe by telling him to kill his son but later telling Abe he was just kidding |
My no means what God just 'kidding'. As voided said, God put Abraham to the ultimate test of faith in His words (small lesson: whenever I capitalize a pronoun and it's not the start of a sentence, I am referring to God). Abraham was to rid his life of the one person that meant more than the world to him, his son Isaac who was born to a sterile mother through God's blessing (EXACTLY what happens in Mary's birth of Jesus); but God, who has this covenant with Abraham and has made numerous promises, must come first and foremost in Abraham's life. Abraham's willingness to give his own son up for God is the ultimate example of faith in God alone. It's a very inspirational story, and I'm not really sure what's confusing about it but it's a good one. | Shikka wrote: | | God killing children because they had the wrong parents |
| Shikka wrote: | | mass genocide by God |
In perfect correlation with my last post about the different covenants, the Old Testament God is a different God (obviously, the same deity but the way that he administers existence is a lot different). But that really isn't the point; the Egyptian pharaoh was an AWFUL man, and was very unjust and cruel. The institutional memory of Joseph was wiped away and AN ENTIRE NATION was enslaved (hmmm), and Pharaoh, even though God made himself VERY apparent by sending 9 prior plagues, still lies to Moses and keeps Israel in captivity. God then punishes the kingdom which Pharaoh oversees; not only a strike against Pharaoh, but also the gods which Egypt worshipped. Those innocent souls will be saved when Moses, Eli, Joesph, Abraham, all those guys lead a nation of God out of hell (it goes something like that, idk). That's how it goes down, I could talk a bit more about that if you want. | Shikka wrote: | | a burning bush |
This will be a very short response to this: This story of the bush is an example of both God's presence and transcendence from the earthly realm. He has full dominion over all that occurs on the Earth but is not bound by the laws which bind us. | Shikka wrote: | | This is how most of the things you listed occurs, because it's God. people living unnatural life spans (Lamech lived 595 years for example), |
Now I thought this was something that was more widely explained, but basically it's just that the grasp of one solar year has never remained the same, and 2,500 years ago, astronomical knowledge was very limited... Creationists determine that the earth is 5,000 years by adding the ages given in the Bible; if Creationism is true, that would probably suggest the Earth is more like 3,000 years old, which is one of the reasons it can't be true haha. Lots of other people can explain this though, because I've done it a bunch of times and my laziness is kicking in. | Shikka wrote: | | God punishing all of humanity for what 2 people did despite the fact he created the opportunity for them to do it |
Adam and Eve. Incredibly controversial and it's meaning/idea is lost on many people. This story has NEVER been a literally true story, EVER. The Second Creation Story (Adam and Eve) is allegorical for the Fall of Man, which is the gradual shifting away from God which results from humans having free will (it is free will which allows us to function, have faith, etc.). All of mankind suffers from this fall, so it's not that we all pay for the sin committed by Eve and then Adam. I will allow you this leeway, though; it does take prior knowledge of CCC doctrine to take the full meaning from this story, so I don't blame you at all. It is a common misconception as to how to interpret the story of Adam and Eve, and as a Catholic I feel that I should do my best to clear it up. | Shikka wrote: | | I haven't even gotten to the part with God sending bears to maul youths for calling a prophet bald, |
This is another thing I provided an explanation for earlier, although I'm not exactly sure where in the thread that was, and the person I was explaining it to didn't accept that explanation so if one doesn't want to look into the story, then it's one's loss.| Shikka wrote: | | a star leading 3 people to the Messiah, a virgin birth, God sending himself as a blood sacrifice so he can forgive everyone, and a man rising from the grave. |
Jesus. This is all about Jesus. It's very rare for atheists to attack much concerning Jesus (as I've seen) rather than the proof of his resurrection, but we're not talking about that (apostolic witness and Witness Based in Women, I'll leave it at that). What needs to be explained more than God placing that star in the sky to lead the Kings to Jesus? Obviously, stars just don't appear in our night skys on some given night that they want to; but God can make that happen, and it's the night of Jesus' birth, which (I believe) is the third most important occurrence in Christian faith (to Easter and Pentecost). With this divine providence, God chooses the Virgin Mary's womb to carry the baby Jesus (JESUS WAS A FETUS. DEATH WILL NOT DEFEAT US /inside joke). Remember, Mary is born without original sin, so similarly to Jesus, she is not bounded by certain things which most are (a personal doctrine of mine is that Mary didn't experience pain in birth). Now, as you said and as Pieman also mentioned, why does God need to send Jesus to forgive us? Why can't he just do it? Well, God's manifestation with us is the living proof of his presence (not proof atheists would accept, but w/e) and his dying on the Cross is the ultimate sign that our God, King and Deity, loves us so much that he will sacrifice HIMSELF to US FOR US. This is SO important because this is the sign of the ultimate covenant which he holds with us; the Great Commandment, Love God with all you mind, heart and strength... He created you and loves you. And his resurrection is the penultimate triumph over death. It's confirmation for humans that death is not the end, and God has power over the greatest of evils.
| Shikka wrote: | | I think you can understand why I have such a hard time buying this religion. |
Don't worry, I do.
I would really like to respond to what other people are saying in this thread but I literally spent three hours on this post and I need orange chicken. And its Super Bowl Sunday. And I have homework. And I need orange chicken.
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Ontwikseltsaar
Joined: 19 Apr 2008
Posts: 1586
Location: Leiden, The Netherlands
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| Posted: Sun Feb 06, 2011 8:52 pm Post subject: |
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Sorry for jumping in here, and this might have been posted in this topic, but I'm wondering what christians have to say in their defense against this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pk0K1zgCDtE (and the other parts)
I know the show is heavily biased, but I'd still like to know why you believe regardless of what is said in the show, or possibly there are some errors in the show?
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Fhdra
Joined: 02 Dec 2009
Posts: 532
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| Posted: Sun Feb 06, 2011 9:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Yewb wrote: | So I should believe everything in it not despite the fact that it was written by hundreds of people who didn't know each other and didn't all even live in the same time period, but because of that fact?
No thanks. |
The point is it is more than a coincidence that hundreds of people that never knew each other all had Biblical accounts that fit together. I think that's more convincing than hundreds of people that live in the same time period that could have conspired to write The Bible and potentially lie in it...
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voidedalive2x
Joined: 29 May 2008
Posts: 7922
Location: jefferson city, MO
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| Posted: Sun Feb 06, 2011 9:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Fhdra wrote: | | Yewb wrote: | So I should believe everything in it not despite the fact that it was written by hundreds of people who didn't know each other and didn't all even live in the same time period, but because of that fact?
No thanks. |
The point is it is more than a coincidence that hundreds of people that never knew each other all had Biblical accounts that fit together. I think that's more convincing than hundreds of people that live in the same time period that could have conspired to write The Bible and potentially lie in it... |
Wouldn't your method potentially involve more mishaps and accidental lies that people who live in together in one time period, like the apostles?
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Fhdra
Joined: 02 Dec 2009
Posts: 532
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| Posted: Sun Feb 06, 2011 10:04 pm Post subject: |
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| voidedalive2x wrote: | | Fhdra wrote: | | Yewb wrote: | So I should believe everything in it not despite the fact that it was written by hundreds of people who didn't know each other and didn't all even live in the same time period, but because of that fact?
No thanks. |
The point is it is more than a coincidence that hundreds of people that never knew each other all had Biblical accounts that fit together. I think that's more convincing than hundreds of people that live in the same time period that could have conspired to write The Bible and potentially lie in it... |
Wouldn't your method potentially involve more mishaps and accidental lies that people who live in together in one time period, like the apostles? |
I'm not sure about accidental lies, but it certainly helps to rule out purposefully lying...
Anyways, I actually under-exaggerated the amount of years and over-exaggerated the amount of authors. The Bible was written over the course of 1,600 years by 40 different men.
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NavyCherub
Joined: 28 May 2008
Posts: 3396
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| Posted: Sun Feb 06, 2011 11:43 pm Post subject: |
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| PiemanLK wrote: | | voidedalive2x wrote: | | Also, it's really a matter of perspective. We find living to 595 years odd because we live to like 120-140 at MOST. While, in their time, that would be like dying at 10-25 years old. |
So what happened that shrunk these peoples' life expectancies from 600 to 80? Kryptonite? |
You have to think from their time forward, not our time back. Many different calenders have been used since the first time humans decided it would be a good idea to keep track of time. Heck, the Egyptians started a new calender every time a Pharoh died. That's why it's hard for historians to perfectly accurately determine when such and such event happened and so and so's birthday was. The actual years and amount of time that is says in the Bible had passed may not (probably isn't) accurate in our present-day view of time, but that doesn't mean it wasn't accurate to them.
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NavyCherub
Joined: 28 May 2008
Posts: 3396
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| Posted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 12:07 am Post subject: |
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| PiemanLK wrote: | | You know, Christians play the 'well time might have been different' card for the seven days thing about creation in Genesis. Except Christians usually say that the 7 days were LONGER than our 7 days, but these 600 years are SHORTER than our 600 years? So in other words, time expands when it's convenient for them, and shrinks when it's not. |
I always figured that the story of the 7 days was similar to Jesus' parables, you're not supposed to take it literally. I don't know what you mean by time "expanding" and "shrinking," because I wasn't implying that at all, I was just saying that many, many different calenders have been used over the course of time; all kinds of different people have looked at time in different ways. It's almost impossible to say with certainty how accurate an ancient person's recorded period of time is without knowing how their calender worked.
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blingdomepiece 
Joined: 03 Aug 2007
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Location: Ottawa ON Canada
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voidedalive2x
Joined: 29 May 2008
Posts: 7922
Location: jefferson city, MO
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| Posted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 2:58 am Post subject: |
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Well, that IS true, for what it's worth.  Especially if Pieman DID have a 1000-word post in rebuttal and didn't post it. I'll apologize for it, though. So, sorry.
And I, at least, would've liked to have seen that post.
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PiemanLK
Joined: 03 Dec 2007
Posts: 4711
Location: /export/home
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| Posted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 3:38 am Post subject: |
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| voidedalive2x wrote: | Well, that IS true, for what it's worth. Especially if Pieman DID have a 1000-word post in rebuttal and didn't post it. I'll apologize for it, though. So, sorry.
And I, at least, would've liked to have seen that post. |
And my reply to you was actually the civil half of the post I made. LlamaYip's the one I blew up on, I should have just cut it off instead of replying to him.
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[quote=''Otend'']Id come up with a long post, but Pieman said what we are all thinking, as usual[/quote]
[quote=''youhas'']EDIT TO ADD: Hey, post #3000! Neat! I will eagerly anticipate my set of ScoreHero-branded steak knives within six to eight weeks.[/quote]
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this1neguy
Joined: 19 Aug 2007
Posts: 5444
Location: Flint, MI
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| Posted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 3:48 am Post subject: |
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I'd like everyone to stop for a moment and read this article. It is incredibly relevant.
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