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newuser1234 
Joined: 31 Dec 2007
Posts: 1273
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 Posted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 10:18 pm Post subject: |
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| ThunderShade wrote: | | Absolutely nuts squeezes, but on the 3rd act of TTFAF you can squeeze one more note in. The squeeze is about 105/106 ms (if you get an extra note at the beginning or end respectively). Also in the 7th act you can get another note in at the end. It's a 100ms squeeze, so again nearly impossible. Both are very hard double squeezes and most likely will never happen with an FC, but they aren't on the upper bound path. |
what we need is ggamer to FC this on hard and tell us the ridiculous squeezes he can hit....anyone think they can convince him 
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dave0113 
Joined: 25 Jul 2007
Posts: 1426
Location: LaGrange, New York
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| Posted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 10:57 pm Post subject: |
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| newuser1234 wrote: | | ThunderShade wrote: | | Absolutely nuts squeezes, but on the 3rd act of TTFAF you can squeeze one more note in. The squeeze is about 105/106 ms (if you get an extra note at the beginning or end respectively). Also in the 7th act you can get another note in at the end. It's a 100ms squeeze, so again nearly impossible. Both are very hard double squeezes and most likely will never happen with an FC, but they aren't on the upper bound path. |
what we need is ggamer to FC this on hard and tell us the ridiculous squeezes he can hit....anyone think they can convince him |
Lol, I was actually just thinking the same thing.
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LlamaYip 
Joined: 23 Dec 2008
Posts: 3151
Location: Chicago, IL
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| Posted: Thu Feb 24, 2011 12:49 am Post subject: |
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Heres some TTFAF for yuns. Sometime later tonight, I'll give my insight on all of the other songs.  You can have a LlamaYip section haha.
Through the Fire and Flames
Use this path
For the second and third activations, move them back one note each to simplify the activation.
Fourth activation, activate on the RB and still squeeze to the YBO sustain, it does require a well-timed squeeze not to miss ticks and still hit it.
A good check score pre-Bridge 1 is 218714. (I have gotten ticks off of the YBO squeezing from the RB, my personal high at this point is 218734. This has only happened to me once though.)
A good check score post-Bridge 1 is 248098 (personal high outside of the aforementioned run is 248114, I've gotten this many times)
A good check score pre-Synth Death is 371250 (which i get frequently, this is 200+ points higher than Fug's score at this point in his first place FC run)
Not pathing: But Herman's Solo rapes kids.
With the whammy in the solo for the 10th activation, it is very difficult to activate on the G and squeeze to that point on the path, I suggest activating on the Y. You won't overlap, don't worry.
Last activation is tough to reach the note before a double squeeze, let alone a double. Find a reliable note to hit in that section because the last activation is easy to lose tons of 200s.
If those unshown squeezes are actually possible, I would place optimal (although very unlikely to ever be achieved) at 733662.
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My Youtube | My Accomplishments | Total Hard FCs: 723/725 | My Stream | GenericName 
Latest Hard FC: Through the Fire and Flames GH3 | GH1: 47/47 GH2: 62/64 GH80S: 30/30 GH3: 70/70 GHA: 41/41 GHWT: 86/86 GHM: 49/49 GHSH: 48/48 GH5: 85/85 GHVH: 47/47 BH: 65/65 GHWOR: 93/93
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Robbert 
Joined: 21 Mar 2007
Posts: 373
Location: Netherlands
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| Posted: Thu Feb 24, 2011 9:36 am Post subject: |
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| dave0113 wrote: |
Another thing, I realized that it is actually possible to calculate the exact amount of points that are possible on all tick bursts. All you have to know is how the burst works, which we do (If the distance between the center of the note and the spot that you hit it early is X ticks, then X ticks get added to your score as soon as you accumulate 2 ticks past the center of the note). We also know that 2 beats of holds is equal to one note, hence 1 beat is equal to half a note, i.e 25 points at a 1x multiplier. That means that 1 tick is 1/25 = .04 beats. Also, ticks are only accumulated in groups of 2 in GH3.
So to calculate the tick burst from any given activation, convert the front end of the timing window (i.e. hitting the note as early as mathematically possilbe) into beats, and see how many times .04 goes into that number. For example, if you are at 150 BPM, the front end of the timing window is 150/60/8.620689655 = .29 beats. And .29/.04 = 7.25 ticks, or just 7 ticks (drop the remainder). This means at 150 BPM, you will get a maximum of 7 ticks added to your score, i.e. 28 points at a 4x multiplier.
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Does it also work with backends? e.g.: Hit a note X ticks late, get X at the end of the sustain?
Also, where is that 8.620689655 coming from? ;x I can't quite place it.
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dave0113
Joined: 25 Jul 2007
Posts: 1426
Location: LaGrange, New York
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| Posted: Thu Feb 24, 2011 8:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Robbert wrote: | | dave0113 wrote: |
Another thing, I realized that it is actually possible to calculate the exact amount of points that are possible on all tick bursts. All you have to know is how the burst works, which we do (If the distance between the center of the note and the spot that you hit it early is X ticks, then X ticks get added to your score as soon as you accumulate 2 ticks past the center of the note). We also know that 2 beats of holds is equal to one note, hence 1 beat is equal to half a note, i.e 25 points at a 1x multiplier. That means that 1 tick is 1/25 = .04 beats. Also, ticks are only accumulated in groups of 2 in GH3.
So to calculate the tick burst from any given activation, convert the front end of the timing window (i.e. hitting the note as early as mathematically possilbe) into beats, and see how many times .04 goes into that number. For example, if you are at 150 BPM, the front end of the timing window is 150/60/8.620689655 = .29 beats. And .29/.04 = 7.25 ticks, or just 7 ticks (drop the remainder). This means at 150 BPM, you will get a maximum of 7 ticks added to your score, i.e. 28 points at a 4x multiplier.
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Does it also work with backends? e.g.: Hit a note X ticks late, get X at the end of the sustain?
Also, where is that 8.620689655 coming from? ;x I can't quite place it. |
Correct, If you hit a note x ticks late, than you get x ticks at the end of the sustain. Note that you still get the same amount of points for the hold, there are just "bursts" at either the beginning or end depending on how early/late you hit the hold. Having star power end at the beginning of a hold, or activating star power at the end of a hold is how you take advantage of this feature to gain more points.
Also, the front end of the timing window is 116 ms, i.e. .116 s. That means you can fit the front end of the timing window 8.60689655 times into one second (1/.116 = 8.620689655). Note that instead of dividing by 8.60689655, you can get the same result by multiplying by .116. The two operations are mathematically equivalent. The reason I divide is because conceptually (figuring out the conversions by writing out each number's unit of measurement, and canceling) it was easier for me to figure out the formula this way. Also, I like the idea of only having to do one operation (division), instead of mixing division and multiplication (and it's easy for me to just store 8.620689655 in my graphing calculator as a constant, so I only have to type "a", instead of the whole number).
Edit: Also, keep in mind that the calculation for the amount of ticks you can burst at the end of a sustain is different, because the back end of the timing window is different from the front end of the timing window. Here is the formula:
tick burst = BPM/60/10/.04
BPM in this formula is the beats per minute at the start of the hold. Note that the 10 in the formula is how many times you can fit the back end of the timing window into 1 second (1/.100=10).
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newuser1234
Joined: 31 Dec 2007
Posts: 1273
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| Posted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 2:51 am Post subject: |
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so dave do you think that you can definitively calculate optimal on songs involving ticks now that you fully understand everything? like for instance, are there any more points left on La Grange or School's Out? if you have it down to a science, i would like to put optimal scores next to each song and then comment on how much is left
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dave0113
Joined: 25 Jul 2007
Posts: 1426
Location: LaGrange, New York
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| Posted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 3:47 am Post subject: |
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| newuser1234 wrote: | | so dave do you think that you can definitively calculate optimal on songs involving ticks now that you fully understand everything? like for instance, are there any more points left on La Grange or School's Out? if you have it down to a science, i would like to put optimal scores next to each song and then comment on how much is left |
I could sure give it a go. I can't promise it will be quick though. I didn't remove myself from playoff consideration from both of my leagues because I had an overabundance of free time. I'll try and figure out a song here, or a song there, and I'll post my results. I'll do the two songs you just mentioned first, along with any other songs you are really curious about.
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newuser1234
Joined: 31 Dec 2007
Posts: 1273
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| Posted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 4:20 am Post subject: |
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| dave0113 wrote: | | newuser1234 wrote: | | so dave do you think that you can definitively calculate optimal on songs involving ticks now that you fully understand everything? like for instance, are there any more points left on La Grange or School's Out? if you have it down to a science, i would like to put optimal scores next to each song and then comment on how much is left |
I could sure give it a go. I can't promise it will be quick though. I didn't remove myself from playoff consideration from both of my leagues because I had an overabundance of free time. I'll try and figure out a song here, or a song there, and I'll post my results. I'll do the two songs you just mentioned first, along with any other songs you are really curious about. |
yeah i understand about the time issue. i just meant that you can test the calculations on those 2 songs (which i think are optimal) and then we can eventually go from there
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Robbert
Joined: 21 Mar 2007
Posts: 373
Location: Netherlands
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| Posted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 8:24 am Post subject: |
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| dave0113 wrote: |
Correct, If you hit a note x ticks late, than you get x ticks at the end of the sustain. Note that you still get the same amount of points for the hold, there are just "bursts" at either the beginning or end depending on how early/late you hit the hold. Having star power end at the beginning of a hold, or activating star power at the end of a hold is how you take advantage of this feature to gain more points. |
Thanks, I guessed as much.
| dave0113 wrote: | | Also, the front end of the timing window is 116 ms, i.e. .116 s. That means you can fit the front end of the timing window 8.60689655 times into one second (1/.116 = 8.620689655). Note that instead of dividing by 8.60689655, you can get the same result by multiplying by .116. The two operations are mathematically equivalent. The reason I divide is because conceptually (figuring out the conversions by writing out each number's unit of measurement, and canceling) it was easier for me to figure out the formula this way. Also, I like the idea of only having to do one operation (division), instead of mixing division and multiplication (and it's easy for me to just store 8.620689655 in my graphing calculator as a constant, so I only have to type "a", instead of the whole number). |
I didn't know that the front-end was 116ms. The rest makes sense, now.
| dave0113 wrote: | Edit: Also, keep in mind that the calculation for the amount of ticks you can burst at the end of a sustain is different, because the back end of the timing window is different from the front end of the timing window. Here is the formula:
tick burst = BPM/60/10/.04
BPM in this formula is the beats per minute at the start of the hold. Note that the 10 in the formula is how many times you can fit the back end of the timing window into 1 second (1/.100=10). |
In short, there is 0.1ms backend window. Gotcha. :P
Well, these numbers easily allow you to express timing windows in ticks, so the actual calculation to see if a squeeze is possible should be easy now. Let me know if you need help calculating some stuff due to time constraints or something, dave.
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dave0113
Joined: 25 Jul 2007
Posts: 1426
Location: LaGrange, New York
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| Posted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 8:44 am Post subject: |
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We're still missing some information about the game engine apparently. I'm calculating optimal on LaGrange to be 210690. At 157 BPM (the measure in which you will be hitting the note, even though the note is in a measure which has 162 BPM), here is the calculation:
157 / 60 / 8.620689655 / .04 = 7.588333333.
This means you can burst 7 ticks out of the last activation, i.e. 28 extra points. Posted optimal is 210666, and 210666 + 28 = 210694. The only problem with that is the fact that ticks accumulate in groups of two. That means if we hit the note 7 ticks early, then star power will only last us 5 ticks into the hold, because the 6th tick won't register until we pass the 7th tick. Which means optimal is 210690. I know something is wrong here because I personally have a higher score than this and I know I didn't cheat in any way to get it.
What's even more troubling is that the high score on scorehero is a full 4 ticks above the mathematical "optimal" score for that song, according to our current understanding of the game engine. So either one of the values represented in the game is not displayed accurately in the code for the game (116/100 ms for the front end and back end timing windows), or there is another aspect of the game engine that we are not fully understanding.
The only thing I can think of is that the natural lag in the game is somehow affecting the score. Does anyone else have any theories?
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Robbert
Joined: 21 Mar 2007
Posts: 373
Location: Netherlands
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| Posted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 12:40 pm Post subject: |
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| dave0113 wrote: | We're still missing some information about the game engine apparently. I'm calculating optimal on LaGrange to be 210690. At 157 BPM (the measure in which you will be hitting the note, even though the note is in a measure which has 162 BPM), here is the calculation:
157 / 60 / 8.620689655 / .04 = 7.588333333.
This means you can burst 7 ticks out of the last activation, i.e. 28 extra points. Posted optimal is 210666, and 210666 + 28 = 210694. The only problem with that is the fact that ticks accumulate in groups of two. That means if we hit the note 7 ticks early, then star power will only last us 5 ticks into the hold, because the 6th tick won't register until we pass the 7th tick. Which means optimal is 210690. I know something is wrong here because I personally have a higher score than this and I know I didn't cheat in any way to get it.
What's even more troubling is that the high score on scorehero is a full 4 ticks above the mathematical "optimal" score for that song, according to our current understanding of the game engine. So either one of the values represented in the game is not displayed accurately in the code for the game (116/100 ms for the front end and back end timing windows), or there is another aspect of the game engine that we are not fully understanding.
The only thing I can think of is that the natural lag in the game is somehow affecting the score. Does anyone else have any theories? |
Here's my attempt, but I may be missing something due to not fully understanding the engine. :P
You squeeze the first note in M131 which is at 159BPM. Thus, the maximum timing window here is 6,625 ticks, or, 6 ticks. Assume the squeeze is optimal.
You squeeze the first note of M139 in M138. Your maximum window here is 7 ticks so with an optimal squeeze you should get a seven tick burst. Those burst points get added at the first tick of the note (+28).
Because you squeezed the first note with 6 ticks, you still have another six ticks of SP at the centre of that note. However, since ticks are only added in pairs of 2 and since we hit it at an odd number of ticks before the centre of the note, you only get points at tick #3 and #5 and because SP will last until tick #6, you'll get another 16 points. At tick number six, your SP ends, but this is not counted under SP and tick number seven adds the usual amount of points.
16+28+210666 = 210710.
That's my interpretation of all of this.
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Bj0rn
Joined: 31 Aug 2007
Posts: 522
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
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| Posted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 4:39 pm Post subject: |
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It's long ago now, but have tried to do just the same calculations as you. However there are too many things we don't know about the engine for it to be fully accurate on anything beyond the most simple cases (which would mainly be cases not involving ticks ). Whammy is a big one. Tick accumulation is another one. The "GH3 accumulates ticks 2 at a time" statement is incorrect. There is proof of that, for example the Generation Rock reverse tick squeeze on expert where the next possible score after 281,118 would be 281,130. So while GH3 usually does 2 ticks at a time, it may suddenly do 3, and strangely, it does so consistently. Also I tried squeezing on PC once, and IIRC I got an even amount of points on a glitched tick squeeze, which I'm pretty sure never happens on 360. And what's with PS2 having a different base score on some songs?
Another thing is burst positioning. While my old theory (which scorehero sort of adopted) was that the back end burst is always in the same spot no matter how late you hit the sustain, that does not necessarily appear to be the case.
Of course you can ignore that, and leave it at how much we know now. At least we can estimate better than spopt2/SlowHero. But it is possible to find out more. You can make custom songs, dedicated to testing the engines limits, what's possible and what isn't. For example you can make whammy notes of different lengths and at different speeds and adjust it so that it is exactly possible to get half a bar of SP. Thanks to the fact that the engine tells you when half a bar is acquired, you won't have to judge the amount of whammy by how hard a squeeze is.
I can probably do this myself, but it's not something I prioritize at the moment. I know Nothankyooo said he would try some of this stuff, but I don't thing that ever happened. Actually I would like to make my own star power optimizer. I've tried some things earlier and did come as far as making a program that can draw charts from .chart files, but it would be a big project, so no promises there.
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dave0113
Joined: 25 Jul 2007
Posts: 1426
Location: LaGrange, New York
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| Posted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 4:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Robbert wrote: | | dave0113 wrote: | We're still missing some information about the game engine apparently. I'm calculating optimal on LaGrange to be 210690. At 157 BPM (the measure in which you will be hitting the note, even though the note is in a measure which has 162 BPM), here is the calculation:
157 / 60 / 8.620689655 / .04 = 7.588333333.
This means you can burst 7 ticks out of the last activation, i.e. 28 extra points. Posted optimal is 210666, and 210666 + 28 = 210694. The only problem with that is the fact that ticks accumulate in groups of two. That means if we hit the note 7 ticks early, then star power will only last us 5 ticks into the hold, because the 6th tick won't register until we pass the 7th tick. Which means optimal is 210690. I know something is wrong here because I personally have a higher score than this and I know I didn't cheat in any way to get it.
What's even more troubling is that the high score on scorehero is a full 4 ticks above the mathematical "optimal" score for that song, according to our current understanding of the game engine. So either one of the values represented in the game is not displayed accurately in the code for the game (116/100 ms for the front end and back end timing windows), or there is another aspect of the game engine that we are not fully understanding.
The only thing I can think of is that the natural lag in the game is somehow affecting the score. Does anyone else have any theories? |
Here's my attempt, but I may be missing something due to not fully understanding the engine. :P
You squeeze the first note in M131 which is at 159BPM. Thus, the maximum timing window here is 6,625 ticks, or, 6 ticks. Assume the squeeze is optimal.
You squeeze the first note of M139 in M138. Your maximum window here is 7 ticks so with an optimal squeeze you should get a seven tick burst. Those burst points get added at the first tick of the note (+28).
Because you squeezed the first note with 6 ticks, you still have another six ticks of SP at the centre of that note. However, since ticks are only added in pairs of 2 and since we hit it at an odd number of ticks before the centre of the note, you only get points at tick #3 and #5 and because SP will last until tick #6, you'll get another 16 points. At tick number six, your SP ends, but this is not counted under SP and tick number seven adds the usual amount of points.
16+28+210666 = 210710.
That's my interpretation of all of this. |
The problem with your calculation is that you are double counting the ticks after the hold. They are already accounted for in the optimal chart (6 ticks to be exact), I checked. The only points that aren't accounted for is the actual tick burst. I subtracted 1 tick from the points that were already accounted for because of what you said, points accumulate at tick's 1, 3, and 5, so the "6th" tick won't be under star power.
I guess all we know right now is exactly what Bjorn said. We can improve the optimal score estimation, but can not guarantee an optimal score. More extensive testing needs to be done. Also we do need to remember that the code for the game is likely not 100% perfect, and is going to have glitches every now and then (like the large gems cheat being temporarily activated when you deploy star power sometimes), and some of these glitches may alter how points in the game are calculated.
So as frustrating as this is, we still have more work to do.
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newuser1234
Joined: 31 Dec 2007
Posts: 1273
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| Posted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 6:39 pm Post subject: |
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i've edited the guide with llama's ttfaf description. i've also edited nothing for me here because i have hit the last squeeze so the 100% path is doable. i wish i could help with these tick calculations but i don't really have a great understanding of all of it so i'll just do my part and try hitting squeezes
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newuser1234
Joined: 31 Dec 2007
Posts: 1273
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| Posted: Fri Mar 11, 2011 6:55 pm Post subject: |
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long overdue bump....
i fixed all of the broken links, linked the glitch ticks guide to all songs with glitched ticks, added a 3's & 7's description, finished the black sunshine description, added the extra squeezes that dave calculated, added the number of the beast extra squeeze, and finished the metal description.
at this point there's not much left except additions if anyone finds extra squeezes or obtains better scores
EDIT: is anyone interested in an aerosmith guide? thats the only other game i can squeeze
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