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TheLonging  





Joined: 07 Apr 2008
Posts: 4188

PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 7:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My rant is on how people who's immediate response to a school shooting is "gun laws are bad" and I want to hurt them.
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Nubnut  





Joined: 07 Jun 2008
Posts: 2078
Location: Denver, CO

PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 7:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lets not turn this into a political minefield here.

All I'll add on the matter is gun laws are good, but until someone can show me a country with gun regulation that has worked in eliminating gun related crimes (rather than in some cases make them worse, we all remember what happened in Norway earlier) I don't see any reason why gun regulation should even be brought up this soon after a tragedy, it's simply insulting to those who died.
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bclare  





Joined: 21 Jun 2008
Posts: 6048
Location: Boston

PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 8:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gun laws in this country are bad, and not only should the death of a bunch of small children not get any less tragic over time (hence why is it worse to bring it up now) but even more importantly people shouldn't have to die in order for us to realize that there are problems. It's more insulting to those who have died to continue to insist that everything is alright, and mass shootings are just something that happens in a healthy and happy society.

I'm not saying guns should be illegal. They should be a little bit harder to buy though, especially assault rifles that have no legitimate self-defense or hunting purpose.

As for Norway, yes there was one huge gun crime there fairly recently. That's an example that sticks out in the memory, but biases your conclusions.

Here are the homicide rates (which of course aren't all gun crimes, but it's a relevant statistic) for several first world (and non) countries

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate#By_country

(listed is number of homicides per 100,000 population)

US - 4.2
Canada - 1.6
Japan - 0.3
South Korea - 2.6
Philippines - 5.4
India - 3.4
Russia - 10.2
Turkey - 3.3
Denmark - 0.9
Norway - 0.6
United Kingdom - 1.2
Sweden - 1.0
Italy - 0.9
Germany - 0.8
Australia - 1.0


If you sort by rate, here are the countries just before and after the US:
Niger, Albania, Palestine, Martinique, USA, Turkmenistan, Yemen, Georgia


Some places with lower murder rates have very strict gun regulation, some have little. Some places with higher murder rates have strict gun regulation (although... not many), etc. Gun regulation is not the end-all-be-all, but it's important. Also important is treating mental illnesses.

(Also important is that as a society, our first reaction to someone doing something we disagree with should not be "I want to hurt them" )
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Nubnut  





Joined: 07 Jun 2008
Posts: 2078
Location: Denver, CO

PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 8:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with you on pretty much all points actually bclare. I guess for me I just like to look at things more in depth, it just utterly confounds me when people's first response after something like this is "Look at what's wrong with guns! We should ban them all" Rather than "Look at what's wrong with society, we should actually take this to heart and try to do something".

I don't know if this is simply because it's easier to blame the tool rather than the person, but I just believe that we should ask ourselves first and foremost about what we can do to try and help or stop people who would do these things.

EDIT: It's been discovered that they found the killer's father dead in Hoboken, NJ, and his mother was a kindergarten teacher at the school. It looks like one incredibly disturbed individual that lead to a domestic violence incident and with horrible, horrible consequences for all the innocent bystanders.
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GuitarHailz  





Joined: 11 Jun 2007
Posts: 4910
Location: Austin, Texas

PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 8:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Like or hate Michael Moore, Bowling for Columbine is actually a good film on this subject. I personally feel that access to better care for mental illness would be a step in the right direction over strict gun control, though I am in favor of some more regulation in that department. Let's get real, there's no reason that this should be allowed for private use. But yeah I hate that people need to die for us to examine what's going wrong in this country... it's messed up.

Though I'd rather newscasters talk about gun control and mental illness instead of blaming the violent video games and music again... The worst is when they're interviewing the traumatized children right after it happened. I mean what the fuck.

Anyway I'm floored by what happened. I can't imagine being one of those parents, hoping against hope that you're not the one that gets the call... it's every parent's worst nightmare... I can't stomach it...
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PiemanLK  





Joined: 03 Dec 2007
Posts: 4710
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 9:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Back in January Michael Moore spoke out saying that Canada and Switzerland have as many guns as we do, and yet, their violent crime rates are lower. This leads me to believe that he was not sure that gun control was the right answer. Today, Michael Moore is demanding tighter gun control. So I'm really not sure what to think of his opinion because it seems to change a lot for no particular reason, other than the fact that the popular thing to do after a shooting is to post paranoid rants about how the government wants to take our guns, or, well...suggest that the government should take our guns!

I think both sides of the argument are wrong for different reasons, but nothing annoys me more than what seems like just another chance to soapbox and feel self-righteous about themselves on the backs of people who died. "Oh goodie, another school shooting, time to campaign for guns to be banned!" I'm sure it doesn't sound like that in the heads of people that think they're probably doing a good thing but it just comes off as douchey to me. A lot of people do stop to think about what happened and to mourn, but a lot more people seem to just want to use today's events to promote a cause.

Hope the world ends next week.
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ready2rock  





Joined: 25 Aug 2007
Posts: 1738
Location: somewhere in this vast universe

PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 9:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's what I posted on my facebook page:

I'm tired of this idea of "now is not the time to discuss these issues." First off, multiple shootings happen every day in the US, so by that logic, we can never talk about these issues. Second, now should be the time to talk about ANYTHING that can prevent this type of tragedy from happening again. If these students had instead come down with a horrible disease, would people seriously be saying that "now is not the time" to discuss how to prevent the disease from spreading? I understand that the issue is complex, and my thoughts go out to all those affected, but a discussion needs to happen about what we can do to prevent these tragedies.
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Nubnut  





Joined: 07 Jun 2008
Posts: 2078
Location: Denver, CO

PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 9:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If anything NOW should be the time to speak about these things, when are we supposed to wait? A month from now when it's left everyone's minds but those involved? I grew up in Centennial, Colorado. I went to Littleton High School, only 5 miles from Columbine. And lived only a few miles away from the Aurora shooting, and I can very easily tell you that if you don't discuss these things immediately, even with the neighborhoods they occur they will be nowhere near the forefront of people's minds within a month, and they don't want to discuss it then either.

When a terrorist attack happens, National security is discussed within hours of the event. But when it's a massacre, no one wants to discuss the gun issues or societal issues involved with it. And I think it's rather clear which of these is a far bigger problem within our society.
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blingdomepiece  





Joined: 03 Aug 2007
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Location: Ottawa ON Canada

PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 1:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've taken the liberty of breaking this out into its own topic, as I assume there will be people with things to say.

As for me, I'm Canadian, so you can probably guess what I think of all this.
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MehPlusRawr  





Joined: 20 Jul 2009
Posts: 1389

PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 2:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Guns for hunting, sport shooting, and self-defense should be reasonably easy to acquire if you're mentally well and don't have a criminal record.

Assault weapons, flamethrowers, gatling guns, giant dildo-shooting cannons, deadly NERF guns, anything that doesn't fall into the above categories? Fuck that, ban 'em.
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bclare  





Joined: 21 Jun 2008
Posts: 6048
Location: Boston

PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 4:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

blingdomepiece wrote:
I've taken the liberty of breaking this out into its own topic, as I assume there will be people with things to say.

As for me, I'm Canadian, so you can probably guess what I think of all this.


But you don't need to apologize for this, it wasn't even a little bit your fault!

@raynebc: More interesting to know if you agree with his second statement.
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Last edited by bclare on Sat Dec 15, 2012 5:45 am; edited 1 time in total
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raynebc  





Joined: 16 Jun 2008
Posts: 992

PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 5:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MehPlusRawr wrote:
Guns for hunting, sport shooting, and self-defense should be reasonably easy to acquire if you're mentally well and don't have a criminal record.


My thoughts exactly.
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directshot999  





Joined: 16 Oct 2007
Posts: 3838
Location: Birmingham, AL

PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 7:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's the simple quote: Guns don't kill people. People kill people.

Gun control will stop criminals from getting them? That worked out well with illegal drugs, didn't it?

With just one exception, every 3+ body count mass murder since 1950 has been in a place where citizens are not allowed to carry their own firearms, this one included (gun-free zone in school).

Killers attack schools and theaters because they KNOW they will not face armed opposition. That can be solved by letting the teachers take advantage of the 2nd amendment.
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raynebc  





Joined: 16 Jun 2008
Posts: 992

PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 8:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

directshot999 wrote:
With just one exception, every 3+ body count mass murder since 1950 has been in a place where citizens are not allowed to carry their own firearms, this one included (gun-free zone in school).

Killers attack schools and theaters because they KNOW they will not face armed opposition.

I honestly don't see why the gun control fanatics don't acknowledge these kinds of details, instead preferring the childish assumption of "MORE GUNS = MORE VIOLENCE".
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ShadoWolf  





Joined: 21 Jul 2008
Posts: 2034
Location: Slough, England

PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 11:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

directshot999 wrote:
Killers attack schools and theaters because they KNOW they will not face armed opposition.
Simple solution: Give all the kids guns
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