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Guitar Hero Speedrunning
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Jleggy12  





Joined: 17 Jan 2008
Posts: 1383
Location: Staffordshire, England

PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2014 10:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mr.Scientist wrote:

Now about the New Career no pre-saved file yada yada, it might actually be more complex than it seems. As Davers already mentionned, GH3 has the COOP bonus songs, which wouldn't be unlocked at all if you started from scratch, requiring you to play through COOP to get them (?) wasting a shit ton of time. Then there's also the credits songs (GH3 TTFAF, GHA Kings and Queens, GHWT Pull Me Under) which don't show any stats screen, so they would basically be unavoidable (and long) time losses (Because of no actual FC proof. Do those songs even show multiplier?). Add to that seeing your paycheck after every song (GH1-80s, not too sure how it would affect WT onwards right now, can't remember :P), having to buy songs off the store, etc. That's all annoying/boring time that adds to the counter. Since a run of any GH game is many hours long, it would be great to avoid such "useless" time losses.

Thing is, it would then have to be a case by case thing for each game. In the earlier games, you could do Quickplay, and go tier by tier. (Full Clear tier 1, then tier 2, then ...., then bonus songs) This would give access to GH3 QP exclusives, and also prevent people from doing something like grinding/reseting over Ballroom Blitz until they get it, then sweep the game and GG community.

Then, for later games, it could still be quickplay, and something could be worked out with a certain type of sorting (guitar difficulty) or (???).


Hmmm, it's a fair point, but I think speed running should be about all that stuff as well - in any other game all of that stuff is required, so I think GH should be the same. It adds another routing aspect to it, rather than just hitting notes (which, granted, is the aim of the game, but still ). For things like the credits songs it might be better to quit the game and come back in if it saves your progress, which I think should definitely be allowed, as that sounds pretty cool, and speed running is all about completed games using any means necessary. That's my opinion, it's pretty purist, but there you go.
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11:13 RheaultWnage_: it's -37°C where you live atm alex? :P
11:13 alexhaz64: -45 now/quite the cold front
11:14 Jleggy12: and that's in Kelvin :o
11:14 RheaultWnage_: damn thats pretty cold/-40 K xD/I think -45 is about the coldest I've ever felt
11:14 Jleggy12: round about -300 C :P
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11:15 RheaultWnage_: OH YOURE TALKING ABOUT THE NOTES LOL
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voidedalive2x  





Joined: 29 May 2008
Posts: 7922
Location: jefferson city, MO

PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2014 4:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mr.Scientist wrote:
Now about the New Career no pre-saved file yada yada, it might actually be more complex than it seems. As Davers already mentionned, GH3 has the COOP bonus songs, which wouldn't be unlocked at all if you started from scratch, requiring you to play through COOP to get them (?) wasting a shit ton of time.

Unless you used the unlock all songs/unlock everything chests, you must play through Co-op to unlock them.

Quote:
(Because of no actual FC proof. Do those songs even show multiplier?).

Nope, though it does act as if the multiplier is there if you have a large enough streak.

Quote:
Add to that seeing your paycheck after every song (GH1-80s, not too sure how it would affect WT onwards right now, can't remember :P), having to buy songs off the store, etc.

WT-onwards (except for WoR) have the paycheck screen as well, so that's not really an isolated issue. I think the G-only paychecks can be pushed through faster, though.

Quote:
Thing is, it would then have to be a case by case thing for each game. In the earlier games, you could do Quickplay, and go tier by tier. (Full Clear tier 1, then tier 2, then ...., then bonus songs) This would give access to GH3 QP exclusives, and also prevent people from doing something like grinding/reseting over Ballroom Blitz until they get it, then sweep the game and GG community.

Isn't that later games? I'm pretty sure that GH1-A require you to unlock the bonus songs and Tier 3-6/8 from career before you can play them in QP (and the Co-op exclusives, as I explained earlier).

Quote:
Then, for later games, it could still be quickplay, and something could be worked out with a certain type of sorting (guitar difficulty) or (???).

If it can be sorted by difficulty level, you could do it by the difficulty of the instrument you're playing with. That's agreeable.

@JLeggy: Most speedrunners do take advantage of glitches to cut down on their time while leaving in title screens (I imagine, I've never really watched a speedrun of anything), so keeping the screens in still sounds right.

@LocaH: Speedrunning GH also has a variable factor of whether or not you can FC each song in as small a number of tries as possible. Especially the harder and/or longer songs like TTFAF or Free Bird or War Pigs. Yes, I know that the people who go for these should be able to FC these easily, but choking/reverse choking these songs Is a very real possibility, and is a real GH-related element in these things.
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Mr.Scientist  





Joined: 26 Dec 2007
Posts: 1828
Location: Quebec City, QC

PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2014 6:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

voidedalive2x wrote:
WT-onwards (except for WoR) have the paycheck screen as well, so that's not really an isolated issue. I think the G-only paychecks can be pushed through faster, though.

I meant, I'm not sure I remember if you also get that payment screens when you play on quickplay on WT+. I think you do, but I'm not sure.


voidedalive2x wrote:
Isn't that later games? I'm pretty sure that GH1-A require you to unlock the bonus songs and Tier 3-6/8 from career before you can play them in QP (and the Co-op exclusives, as I explained earlier).

I meant using Quickplay on a "completed" save file, sorry (all songs unlocked already).
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inv4der  





Joined: 16 Sep 2007
Posts: 9655
Location: Meridian, ID

PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2014 6:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I haven't read the thread at all but I have to ask:

In what universe is a speedrun of 50 to 80 3 minute or longer autoscrollers in a row a GOOD idea? (Assuming the flawless play you're requiring actually happens, otherwise it's even more attempts at a level.)

In what way would requiring a speedrun have a 100% run of all songs in a game (with later games, this being 6 hours of good play, for instance) open it up to more casual players interested in running the game? Sure you can allow all instruments and difficulties but then you hit the "GHWT Beginner Vox WR" area where there's little to no actual skill and the game is still several hours long.

If anything, you guys should be focusing on, say, GH6, where you don't have to play every song to reach the ending (which I'd define as beating the song after defeating the beast in story, when you unlock the all powers gameplay), instead you'd want to be optimizing length of songs versus the stars required to "unleash" the heroes or whatever the plot was. Skill is still involved, because that's how you get more stars, but it's not to the level where missing a note loses an entire run of a song. Playing a decent amount of the songs is still done, but it's not LITERALLY all of them.

There's a reason that games like GH and RB were never traditionall speedrun, and it's for much the same reason that things like Shmups haven't ever really be run. They're just not suited for it, due to their autoscrolling nature.
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GregoryZero  





Joined: 04 Jan 2008
Posts: 2338
Location: California

PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2014 8:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is the most idiotic idea I have ever seen, even only in concept.
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McSkinny  





Joined: 09 Apr 2007
Posts: 1137
Location: British Columbia, Canada

PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2014 8:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yea this seems terrible
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newuser1234  





Joined: 31 Dec 2007
Posts: 1273

PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2014 8:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

if anything, the idea of how many times you had to restart to FGFC some game is the way to go. and i don't care about it being on video because i wouldn't watch. i would take the honor system like the high score/chain thread or whatever it is.
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inv4der  





Joined: 16 Sep 2007
Posts: 9655
Location: Meridian, ID

PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2014 9:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If anything the one session, one try per song thing is better suited for scorerunning, scores being something this site did once pay attention to.

Instead of going for speed and requiring a song you don't FC to be replayed, why not go for score and just do one go at a song? When you're done with the set, you look at your career score and that's how well you did. (This is literally a precedented rivalry format with the one session thing tacked on.)

And in GH6, there's the Mirror Mode and Note Shuffle systems, which can sometimes change a chart quite a bit. (Playing Note Shuffle for score would certainly change the way a lot of people play I'd think. >__>)

Basically I'm trying to say, there's better challenge modes to look at than playing for speed in a game that is essentially an autoscroller collection with very small menuing in between levels.

I can admire the spirit but there's just some games that you can't speedrun. (Or at least, speedrun and have it be a good idea and interesting.)

EDIT: also, say someone gets "the run" of a game like GHA, all songs FCed first try. Now what, you do more attempts to squeeze frames on menus and loading between 3+ minute songs?
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Davers  





Joined: 10 Oct 2007
Posts: 4619
Location: In a van down by the river

PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2014 9:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lots of people brought up that there should definitely be categories. Not necessarily just speedrun type things. Scores/stars/FCs in X amount of time, stuff like that was brought up. Definitely a new challenge if anything. I'm not one to sit down and do something like this due to the sheer length of the games, but I do find it interesting and respect the challenge it would bring.

I'll update the OP later tonight with a few changes people seem to agree on in here! Some good debates and discussions!
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k3v227  





Joined: 04 Jan 2007
Posts: 938
Location: Illinois, USA

PostPosted: Sat Jan 25, 2014 8:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Davers wrote:
Lots of people brought up that there should definitely be categories. Not necessarily just speedrun type things. Scores/stars/FCs in X amount of time, stuff like that was brought up. Definitely a new challenge if anything. I'm not one to sit down and do something like this due to the sheer length of the games, but I do find it interesting and respect the challenge it would bring.

I'll update the OP later tonight with a few changes people seem to agree on in here! Some good debates and discussions!


I like the idea of a career score speedrun. This could maybe be something like you get 1 attempt at each song and then see what kind of career total you can get. You could certainly look at paths going into each song and time to complete the setlist doesn't matter. So I guess it's not a "Speed" run, but more of a straight run though (similar to what scarecrow was talking about?).

Honestly it sounds better than the FGFC speedrun because it is basically an endurance event (even with breaks) and pretty much takes all day to do. After trying two GH1 FGFC speedruns, I don't think many people are going to be doing them for games other than GHA.


Also I like the idea of preset medley FC speedrun. For a game like GH1 you would speedrun the hardest songs (which can be debated) such as BatM, FiU, GR2R, and others. The point would be to skip the easy songs which take up a very large amount of time and are also very frustrating to mess up.

Another option similar to the "score speedrun" would be to have a per tier speed run, or a set medley speed run for score or FC.

EDIT: just saw that inv4der suggested scorerunning too lol...
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alexhaz64  





Joined: 01 Mar 2008
Posts: 4476
Location: Long Beach, CA

PostPosted: Sat Jan 25, 2014 10:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe I'm just not as familiar with the speedrunning communities out there, but why wouldn't you be able to use quickplay? Why do you have to unlock the songs? Assuming the whole run is on video, why would it matter? Just cause it could possibly be edited? I assumed the point of the speedrun would simply be to FGFC as fast as possible, which I guess boils down to number of attempts of each song, as scarecrow was saying. Still I feel like there's enough room for error that there could be wildly different times due to a few simple mistakes. I can't imagine anyone is consistent enough to not make a few mistakes, even on the easier songs.

I definitely like the idea of score speedruns, or seeing how good of a total score you can get with one run per song. I've been in a few "sightread" rivalries with JohnnyGrey and others, and they were quite fun. I guess the biggest difference in this case would be the liberty too look up paths before playing the songs, and having to do them all in one sitting. Seems fun regardless.

I was also thinking something along the lines of 200/211 would be an interesting speedrun, if only because it takes song choice into effect here. Do you go for the shorter but harder song (such as BiM) or for the longer but slightly easier song (such as H18)? Maybe a more reasonable speedrun would be 40 FCs in GH1, or something like that. Something where you'd have to play at least a few legitimately challenging songs to reach the goal, anyway. Just an idea anyway.
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ElementOfZero  





Joined: 14 Jul 2007
Posts: 2270
Location: Lake Park, Georgia

PostPosted: Sat Jan 25, 2014 12:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's what I'm a fan of and would enjoy watching someone stream:

Number of restarts before a FGFC (70:70 would be perfect for GH3, while something realistic would be 253:70)

Time to FGFC - (Time begins when new career is chosen, ends when last song to be FCd ends)

Combined Score after 1 attempt of each song (must complete the first gig of a game to start on to avoid someone just starting with a TTFAF FC)

Career Score after X amount of time

FCs after X amount of time (these last two would probably a good versus)
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xbillax  





Joined: 09 Jun 2007
Posts: 911
Location: Norway

PostPosted: Sat Jan 25, 2014 3:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This thread made for an interesting read.

Just because of the last couple of days I think I will start practicing my GH skills again and perhaps finally get a FGFC in any of the games.

Maybe even in the future I might attempt a speed run myself, which I will probably hate myself for doing when it happens
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CoolMotion  





Joined: 16 May 2007
Posts: 1097
Location: Ohio, USA

PostPosted: Sat Jan 25, 2014 5:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GregoryZero wrote:
This is the most idiotic idea I have ever seen, even only in concept.

McSkinny wrote:
Yea this seems terrible

These. Speedrunning a game like Super Mario Brothers, for example, makes sense, because there's little tricks and stuff you can do to get a shorter time. What is there for Guitar Hero? Mashing the green button through menus faster?
For a game like Guitar Hero, there is only one set fixed time that CANNOT be beaten. The songs are fixed length. It just seems stupid because you know for a fact you're going to get AT LEAST x hours or whatever.

inv4der wrote:
If anything, you guys should be focusing on, say, GH6, where you don't have to play every song to reach the ending (which I'd define as beating the song after defeating the beast in story, when you unlock the all powers gameplay), instead you'd want to be optimizing length of songs versus the stars required to "unleash" the heroes or whatever the plot was. Skill is still involved, because that's how you get more stars
...
There's a reason that games like GH and RB were never traditionall speedrun, and it's for much the same reason that things like Shmups haven't ever really be run. They're just not suited for it, due to their autoscrolling nature.

This makes good sense.

elScarecrow wrote:
maybe count "time" as number of misses/restarts - FCing an entire game straight through would be a 0, 1 restart a 1, etc.

This too.
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elScarecrow  





Joined: 22 Apr 2008
Posts: 1404
Location: Raleigh

PostPosted: Sat Jan 25, 2014 6:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i would be down for a streaming a runthrough of an entire game, one try per song, total score is the point value. i'd like to think i can set an impassible bar in WT in one go

i also like the current note streak rivalry, been meaning to contribute to that.

FGFCing anything on X in one sitting other than BH or GHA sounds absolutely miserable.
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