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Sephi
Joined: 09 Jun 2006 Posts: 454 Location: Albuquerque, NM
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Posted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 8:29 pm Post subject: Possible Rule Formats |
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It has been very apparent that a lot of people here are unsure of rule formats that they should use for tournaments. This thread is for people to post possible rule formats and have them be critiqued or used by others. This should make it easier to run tournaments around the nation. |
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popemobile
Joined: 03 Jun 2006 Posts: 3879
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Posted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 8:32 pm Post subject: |
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Rules:
Pick 3 songs, highest combined total for 3 songs wins
and its the same 3 songs for each person |
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Sephi
Joined: 09 Jun 2006 Posts: 454 Location: Albuquerque, NM
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Posted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 8:34 pm Post subject: |
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Best Two-out-of-Three
Two separate T.V.'s
Player One picks the first song that both players play on the same difficulty. Whoever gets the highest SCORE wins a point for that song.
Player Two picks the second song that both players play on the same difficulty. Whoever gets the highest SCORE wins a point for that song.
If at this point, the score is 1-1. Then the last song is RANDOMLY picked somehow. Whoever gets the highest score wins the match.
Pros:
THE best comparison of score and ability
Fairness to both competitors
Randomness reduces the chance of either player playing "their" song.
Cons:
Time (Each match may last up to 15 minutes or more!) |
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Sephi
Joined: 09 Jun 2006 Posts: 454 Location: Albuquerque, NM
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Posted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 8:39 pm Post subject: |
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popemobile wrote: | Rules:
Pick 3 songs, highest combined total for 3 songs wins
and its the same 3 songs for each person |
The only problem with this format are songs like Unsung and I Love Rock 'n' Roll.
These two songs have such a varied score total.
Example:
Player 1 gets 400,000 Points on Unsung (Very High)
Player 2 gets 300,000 Points on Unsung (Relatively Medium)
Player 1 gets 100,000 Points on I Love Rock 'n' Roll (Very LOW)
Player 2 gets 135,000 Points on I Love Rock 'n' Roll (Very High)
For song three, Player 2 has to make up 65,000 Points to win. Unsung has become the deciding song even though it's supposed to be even. The problem with this format is that it isn't the best OVERALL comparison of ability. If all songs had the same score total, then this would be the ideal way to compare. |
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popemobile
Joined: 03 Jun 2006 Posts: 3879
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Posted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 8:56 pm Post subject: |
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then dont use Unsung |
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Sephi
Joined: 09 Jun 2006 Posts: 454 Location: Albuquerque, NM
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Posted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 9:15 pm Post subject: |
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That's not the point though. Unsung is a great song for testing ability. That would be like taking Cowboys from Hell out because some people can't pass it. Tournament formats should be fair across the board for open competition. |
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trofl
Joined: 26 Apr 2006 Posts: 1297 Location: Ames, IA
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Posted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 10:01 pm Post subject: |
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First round - One song randomly picked, medium difficulty, everyone plays the same song, take the upper half
Second round - One song randomly picked, hard difficulty, everyone plays the same song, take the upper half
Third round - One song randomly picked, expert difficulty, everyone plays the same song, take the top two
Fourth round - One song randomly picked, expert difficulty... perhaps narrow it down to Face Melters category for dramatic effect, play as simultaneously as possible on two setups, top score wins. Option: best 2/3.
Pros:
Can use as many setups as possible, possibly the fastest way to run a tourney
No head-to-head eliminates need for double-elim to get top players matched up
Cons:
Players can see each others' SP paths, player(s) going first has disadvantage
Players must be alright with expert difficulty if they expect to proceed into final round _________________
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Sephi
Joined: 09 Jun 2006 Posts: 454 Location: Albuquerque, NM
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Posted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 10:19 pm Post subject: |
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trofl wrote: | First round - One song randomly picked, medium difficulty, everyone plays the same song, take the upper half
Second round - One song randomly picked, hard difficulty, everyone plays the same song, take the upper half
Third round - One song randomly picked, expert difficulty, everyone plays the same song, take the top two
Fourth round - One song randomly picked, expert difficulty... perhaps narrow it down to Face Melters category for dramatic effect, play as simultaneously as possible on two setups, top score wins. Option: best 2/3.
Pros:
Can use as many setups as possible, possibly the fastest way to run a tourney
No head-to-head eliminates need for double-elim to get top players matched up
Cons:
Players can see each others' SP paths, player(s) going first has disadvantage
Players must be alright with expert difficulty if they expect to proceed into final round |
Pro:
VERY ORIGINAL IDEA
Con:
Small sample for comparison of entire group. 3 songs to determine the best? Might be a too few.
The only thing that I don't like is if say you get some people who can only play on Medium or Hard, then they have no point in entering because they cannot even proceed past a certain point. May also lower turnout because of this. |
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popemobile
Joined: 03 Jun 2006 Posts: 3879
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Posted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 10:25 pm Post subject: |
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Make seperate brackets for each difficulty |
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discgolferpro
Joined: 05 Feb 2006 Posts: 861 Location: Kansas City, Mo
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Posted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 10:26 pm Post subject: |
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trofl wrote: | First round - One song randomly picked, medium difficulty, everyone plays the same song, take the upper half
Second round - One song randomly picked, hard difficulty, everyone plays the same song, take the upper half
Third round - One song randomly picked, expert difficulty, everyone plays the same song, take the top two
Fourth round - One song randomly picked, expert difficulty... perhaps narrow it down to Face Melters category for dramatic effect, play as simultaneously as possible on two setups, top score wins. Option: best 2/3.
Pros:
Can use as many setups as possible, possibly the fastest way to run a tourney
No head-to-head eliminates need for double-elim to get top players matched up
Cons:
Players can see each others' SP paths, player(s) going first has disadvantage
Players must be alright with expert difficulty if they expect to proceed into final round |
I like this one best so far. As for the going first problem, make that random also.
Some thoughts on the workings
- Use an old deck of cards. Write the 47 songs on the card faces.
- Organizer picks a random card for the song selection at each stage.
- Reshuffle.
- Players pick a random card with ties broken as per bridge suits (spades, hearts, diamonds, clubs)
- Side by side play. I think it's necessary because you don't want to hear GR2R 12 times on medium.
- Organizer starts both guitars at the same time.
- Players have PS2s and TVs side by side.
- First player's TV video and audio goes out to establishment/venue PA and projectors/TVs
- Second player's audio can be fed to him through headphones if he choses.
Most importantly, video tape everything so you can share it here!!!!!! _________________
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ES942
Joined: 02 Mar 2006 Posts: 3445 Location: Snalbans
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Posted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 10:36 pm Post subject: |
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that's why GH2 will be better. both players play the whole song note for note in versus, and you can choose separate difficulties. (why didn't they do that it the first one?) |
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Sephi
Joined: 09 Jun 2006 Posts: 454 Location: Albuquerque, NM
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Posted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 10:37 pm Post subject: |
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Maybe another change would be to pick the top 4 at the end rather than the top two. This would make it more competitive at the top. |
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Azuarc
Joined: 18 Jul 2006 Posts: 1389 Location: Philadelphia
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Posted: Thu Aug 10, 2006 2:04 pm Post subject: |
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Sephi wrote: | Example:
Player 1 gets 400,000 Points on Unsung (Very High)
Player 2 gets 300,000 Points on Unsung (Relatively Medium)
Player 1 gets 100,000 Points on I Love Rock 'n' Roll (Very LOW)
Player 2 gets 135,000 Points on I Love Rock 'n' Roll (Very High)
For song three, Player 2 has to make up 65,000 Points to win. Unsung has become the deciding song even though it's supposed to be even. The problem with this format is that it isn't the best OVERALL comparison of ability. If all songs had the same score total, then this would be the ideal way to compare. |
There's a simple fix for this.
#1: Make the higher score worth 100 match points. The lower score is worth the equivalent percentage.
#2 (better, but harder to see realized): Make an equivalency rating for each song, so that maybe 100,000 is worth 100 match points in ILRR, but it takes 250,000 to get as much on Unsung. The difficulty with this is making fair equivalency ratings, and some songs don't gradate well by song, so making this strictly linear would prove troublesome.
What people are forgetting is that there are basically four tiers of performance on a song. (Arguably five, if you want to split the last one.)
1. Can't even finish it.
2. Can barely finish it.
3. Has the majority of the song mastered.
4. Has the whole song mastered.
The difference in score between 2, 3, and 4 can be staggering. On, say, I Love Rock and Roll, a difference of 50,000 is huge. By contrast, my (#2 tier) score on Cowboys is not even 100k, while the top score is over 400k. My score on, say, Crossroads or No One Knows is respectable for my level but still well behind the curve for the top players.
Summary: making a system that is based around point differences and multi-song point totals is going to have some innate room for error. When I compare myself to people near me on the rankings list, and I see I'm winning 29 of 47 songs against the person ahead of me, and losing 28 of 47 to the person behind me, I can see how the person that isn't the better player might advance.
Then again, maybe this is desireable. It isn't like the #1 player wins Wimbledon every year. |
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Sephi
Joined: 09 Jun 2006 Posts: 454 Location: Albuquerque, NM
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Posted: Thu Aug 10, 2006 6:55 pm Post subject: |
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The only problem with that system is guitar hero scoring within the game. It is very possible to get the same percentage, but have very different scores. Then one could get say a 99% and the "loser" gets 98%, but the guy with 98% used his star power much more effectively and had a higher score, BUT he lost the match. I know I keep coming back and bashing each method, but it's really a serious subject to make sure that a tournament is as fair as possible. I mean I really do run tournaments and these problems do come up. I've run a lot of videogame tournaments and rules can make or break the turnout. This is why I keep asking so much.
Oh and one more thing to consider. We haven't talked much about total people for the tournament. My idea for the best-two-out-of-three would be very ideal for making a worthwhile tournament for up to 8 people. Any more and I would go with the other idea for taking the top half. But, that would be illogical to use for say 4-6 people or less. |
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trofl
Joined: 26 Apr 2006 Posts: 1297 Location: Ames, IA
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Posted: Thu Aug 10, 2006 9:42 pm Post subject: |
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DDR is much easier to tourney because you have more variables than just a straight score... Perfects, Greats, etc. You can create your own scoring system that way. Not so much in GH, which is why it really blows in the scoring dept. like Sephi says. _________________
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