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psychomonkey62  





Joined: 18 Jun 2007
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2007 10:13 pm    Post subject: Evolution Reply with quote

I accept it. Why? LOTS of reasons. Endogenous retroviruses, fossils, our own structure, (which has quite a bit of flaws) transitional species, etc. I debate on a Christian forum (I'm atheist myself) and never seem to find any compelling evidence for creationism or intelligent design. Most of the reasons boil down to either "everything is beautiful and complex, so there must be a god" or "I think evolution is dumb." Neither one is evidence-based.

And on ERVs: When an organism contracts a disease, it leaves a mark in its DNA in a certain spot. This mark is passed on through the organism's offspring. We share about 200,000 ERVs, in the same exact spots, with chimps. Here's a post I found on that Christian forum which breaks down how ERV's are evidence.

Quote:
If you want to check for plagiarism, one of the best things to look for is errors that are shared between the two works. Say I'm writing code and I for some reason toss 17 spaces between the end of a line and a semicolon. Now, this doesn't break the program, but it is an odd way to format the the code. Now, if another program pops up with the same 17 spaces before a semicolon and in the same code, chances are someone copied my work. It doesn't really matter if there are ten other places that the code is formated oddly.

This is what we have with ERVs. Bunches and bunches of cases where the same mistake happens in the same spot. We can thus conclude that both were copied from the same original (last common ancestor) Does it matter that more mistakes were made since? not at all.


Meanwhile, the evidence I usually see for intelligent design is actually (usually flawed) evidence against evolution.

What does everyone here think?
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Matt  





Joined: 04 Feb 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2007 11:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am a creationist (yes I believe the Earth is only roughly 6,000 years old), and I think that at the moment, neither side can produce more "hard" evidence than the other. Even fossils are misleading, as the method of carbon dating turns out to suck for things over a thousand years old.

My question to evolutionists, is if we are a result of billions of years of random mutations, then why do we have external symmetry, along with everything else in the animal kingdom? Why do flowers have radial symmetry?

There sure is a shit ton of order in a world that is supposedly the result of randomness.
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tornintwo  





Joined: 08 Aug 2007
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Location: Vancouver, B.C.

PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2007 12:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Matt wrote:
There sure is a shit ton of order in a world that is supposedly the result of randomness.


Exactly. I am not really a creationist but I do go to chruch regularly and I honestly have no idea who is right and I don't think anyone will ever know or if there is even a right answer. We could just be coming up with inventive solutions that all may be way off.

I do belive strongly in evolution based on the mountains of scientific evidence. Creationism could be possible, but its not likely the Earth is 6000 years old. If God (or some other supreme being) did create the universe, it was hundreds of millions of years ago.
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Ealasaid  





Joined: 14 Nov 2006
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Location: Santa Clara, CA

PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2007 12:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Matt wrote:
My question to evolutionists, is if we are a result of billions of years of random mutations, then why do we have external symmetry, along with everything else in the animal kingdom? Why do flowers have radial symmetry?

There sure is a shit ton of order in a world that is supposedly the result of randomness.


Well, there isn't a ton of point in discussions like this, since nobody is looking to have their mind changed.

That said, I'll take a crack at answering your challenge: the world as it stands is not the result of randomness; sure, mutations are random, but which ones survive to be passed on is not.

Bilateral symmetry is useful -- if you lose one hand, you have another; if one lung collapses, you have the other; if one kidney fails, you have the other. Having two of things makes you more likely to survive an accident and pass on your genes. Radial symmetry in flowers is probably part of what attracts insects for pollination (that's why there are UV-visible patterns on flowers as well as regular-spectrum ones -- it's to attract pollinating bugs). Radial symmetry in plant structures is useful since they have to take wind pressure from all directions.
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CleverTangent  





Joined: 03 Sep 2007
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2007 12:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I, too, consider myself a creationist, because the Bible says that in the beginning, God created everything. I don't consider that open to interpretation. I also don't think it's relevant how he did it, either; all that matters is that he did, and here we are.

Although, I can't solidly refute Evolutionist ideas, due to my general lack of understanding of the topic. I mean, I understand the gist of the theory, but my blank stares in freshman high school biology indicated how much I was learning.
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Matt  





Joined: 04 Feb 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2007 12:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ealasaid wrote:
Matt wrote:
My question to evolutionists, is if we are a result of billions of years of random mutations, then why do we have external symmetry, along with everything else in the animal kingdom? Why do flowers have radial symmetry?

There sure is a shit ton of order in a world that is supposedly the result of randomness.


Well, there isn't a ton of point in discussions like this, since nobody is looking to have their mind changed.

That said, I'll take a crack at answering your challenge: the world as it stands is not the result of randomness; sure, mutations are random, but which ones survive to be passed on is not.

Bilateral symmetry is useful -- if you lose one hand, you have another; if one lung collapses, you have the other; if one kidney fails, you have the other. Having two of things makes you more likely to survive an accident and pass on your genes. Radial symmetry in flowers is probably part of what attracts insects for pollination (that's why there are UV-visible patterns on flowers as well as regular-spectrum ones -- it's to attract pollinating bugs). Radial symmetry in plant structures is useful since they have to take wind pressure from all directions.


I will grant you that 2 is better than one, but having 2 of something does not mean you are symmetrical. I could very well have my second arm growing out from under my left arm.

For the record, I do deny microeveolution; i.e., the ability for species to adapt to little changes in the enviroment. We have witnessed this firsthand.
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thecaptainof  





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PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2007 1:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ealasaid wrote:
Well, there isn't a ton of point in discussions like this, since nobody is looking to have their mind changed.


Um, yeah, pretty much this. Particularly (and I mean this with respect) when the person who ultimately decides whether topics live or die is so biased on the subject. I'm all for debate but it's so one-sided... and it's futile really, like you say, nobody's gonna change anyone's opinion.

Buuut, and I'm sure we've done this before in other religion-based topics... completely throwing off any bias from scientific evidence (because I haven't really researched enough) and religious dogma (because I'm not interested) and thinking purely as myself, Creationism just doesn't make sense to me. I simply cannot believe that some guy in the sky decided to make a world, it sounds like something Terry Pratchett would write.
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psychomonkey62  





Joined: 18 Jun 2007
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2007 1:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CleverTangent wrote:
I, too, consider myself a creationist, because the Bible says that in the beginning, God created everything. I don't consider that open to interpretation. I also don't think it's relevant how he did it, either; all that matters is that he did, and here we are.

Although, I can't solidly refute Evolutionist ideas, due to my general lack of understanding of the topic. I mean, I understand the gist of the theory, but my blank stares in freshman high school biology indicated how much I was learning.


I suggest you actually research some stuff and open your mind to more than "Goddidit and that's final."

Blind faith and willful ignorance = bad
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Matt  





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PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2007 1:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well there are a lot of people who know the Bible inside and out and still say the same thing. Acceptance != blind faith.

Likewise, there are countless people out there who will tell you evidence is the truth, because they were told so in school.

Blind faith is just as prevalent in science.

Curiously, do you think the Bible is not true, and if so, what makes you say so? I would assume, then, that you have read the entire thing? (Sorry if this sounds aggressive, I promise its just curiosity)
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mac081793  





Joined: 07 Aug 2007
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Location: Pomona, CA

PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2007 1:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok thats great and all but I really do hope this doesn't turn into a religious debate.

I myself am Christian....Though, I question my faith quite a bit. I'm for God and all but sometimes when Science and Religion collide things start to get quite whack.
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FlimFlam  





Joined: 10 Aug 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2007 3:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Matt wrote:
Well there are a lot of people who know the Bible inside and out and still say the same thing. Acceptance != blind faith.

Likewise, there are countless people out there who will tell you evidence is the truth, because they were told so in school.

Blind faith is just as prevalent in science.

Curiously, do you think the Bible is not true, and if so, what makes you say so? I would assume, then, that you have read the entire thing? (Sorry if this sounds aggressive, I promise its just curiosity)


Speaking for myself, I don't think the Bible is true partly because I think, "Why is this version of history correct as opposed to Buddhism, or anything else?" Basically, the existence of so many religions makes me doubt all of them. I think that if people actually knew what happened, we wouldn't have so many explanations for the same thing.
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Matt  





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PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2007 3:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well in all fairness, 2 of the world's biggest religions, Christianity and Islam, both share the same story of creation (the Bible and Q'uran eventually split somewhere mid genesis).
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Pepino123  





Joined: 05 Aug 2007
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2007 3:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I believe in God, but my view on God is probably different from most of those that agree with the Bible. I believe God to be a passive creature that will 'love" us no matter what but he didn't create the Earth and only the Earth and Adam and Eve.

He created the universe, and he periodically oversees things, in fact, I believe God to be more human and not all serious and "Hello, this is your God speaking, I created you for a purpose, go to church."

It's my fair balance between the far right bible lovers and the far left do whatever the hell you want because God is fake.

On an end note, there is life after death =)
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Erodyne  





Joined: 15 Dec 2007
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2007 6:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am Christian, and believe in the God theory, but most of the facts of evolution are right, i just don't believe the Big Bang thoery because it just doesn't seem likely.
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ManfredvonKarma  





Joined: 31 Oct 2007
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2007 6:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm an agnostic. I believe in evolution and the Big Bang Theory (both make sense to me). However, the one thing that I can never find an answer for is this question I've always had, "What caused the Big Bang?" This is why I cannot eliminate the existance of a higher power. I tend to lean towards there being a higher power, but I just don't know.
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