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Deimos  
 




Joined: 24 Jul 2007
Posts: 1344
Location: Calgary, AB

PostPosted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 12:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

/sigh, TheDave, I explained this to you when you made the exact same suggestion to me through PM. Whether we give "score" or not for people that didn't pass, it has absolutely no effect in the current system. The only thing that matters for how many points you are awarded is how many people you do better than. The lowest ranked person doesn't get 0 league points because their score was 0, they get 0 points because they did worse than everyone else.

Without entirely switching the league scoring system, it doesn't matter "how well" anyone does, the only thing that matters is how you place in the pack. On the opposite end of the spectrum, do you think that the top-end players are happy about getting 10 less league points because someone squeezed one more tick than them? Probably not, but that's how leagues work. It's all about how you do in relation to your competition, not "how well" you played the song.

Honestly, I don't think you're looking for leagues, at least not the way we run them right now. I think you're just looking for the regular Scorehero ranks. There, everything is based on point total, which seems to be what you want. Passing a song that someone else can't pass makes a huge difference to your point total, and only losing by a tick hardly makes any difference at all. That seems to be what you want leagues to be as well, and I personally don't think I agree. But even the league points system is going to be up for debate once I get this "committee" organized, so I guess we'll see what everyone thinks, once that's rolling.
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eyewin8  
 




Joined: 11 Aug 2006
Posts: 2790
Location: Kentucky

PostPosted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 12:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I really liked the poll song feature of past leagues. It kind of mixed the songs up a bit more and had more of a players input into it. It made you want to stick around a little longer, knowing that you had a bit of control over at least one song per week.

Another thing I liked was the one twist per week. Like a GH2X league would or 3 or 4 songs, I forget, and then a twist song. I don't know how hard it would be to do poll songs, but this should be easy to implement, as it was a league by itself last year.

Like, I said in IRC, I would love to test for you. I am more of a feedback person than an original idea person lol
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googleimage  
 




Joined: 23 Aug 2007
Posts: 1229

PostPosted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 1:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What I wouldn't mind seeing is some sort of incentive towards merely submitting a score. In my last league, 14 players submitted a score, and the 14th place player received 4.46 points. Plug in x = 1/14 into that lovely 7th-order equation, and that's what you should get. But of course, about 40 people didn't submit scores, so technically, this person finished 14th out of 54 (x = 41/54), which would yield 54 points or so. I think both scores, ultimately, are a little extreme, but I think that if you account for all the non-submissions in a more moderate way, you could give that last-place guy a bit more of a boost on that one song, and give players a little extra motivation towards actually participating. My thinking is to add an extra 20% (arbitrary number) to the bottom for all the non-submissions. So if 15 people submit scores, you calculate the percentile using 15 + (15)(0.2) as your total # of participants. So the guy that finished 14th didn't finish 14th out of 14, but rather 14 out of 16 or 17, or whatever provides reasonable results. Of course, if less than 20% fail to submit scores, you can just calculate the scores straight, and call the non-submissions "last place". I know there's a chain reaction of things that'll happen towards the top, but I think we could make this work with a bit of experimenting. And it's a hell of a lot better than making judgment calls over who's still playing.
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TheDave  
 




Joined: 04 Mar 2008
Posts: 636
Location: The OC

PostPosted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 4:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Deimos wrote:
Without entirely switching the league scoring system, it doesn't matter "how well" anyone does, the only thing that matters is how you place in the pack. On the opposite end of the spectrum, do you think that the top-end players are happy about getting 10 less league points because someone squeezed one more tick than them? Probably not, but that's how leagues work. It's all about how you do in relation to your competition, not "how well" you played the song.

Honestly, I don't think you're looking for leagues, at least not the way we run them right now. I think you're just looking for the regular Scorehero ranks. There, everything is based on point total, which seems to be what you want. Passing a song that someone else can't pass makes a huge difference to your point total, and only losing by a tick hardly makes any difference at all. That seems to be what you want leagues to be as well, and I personally don't think I agree.

But even the league points system is going to be up for debate once I get this "committee" organized, so I guess we'll see what everyone thinks, once that's rolling.


Deimos,

I guess we disagree then.
And while I most certainly didn't want or expect the points to change last season, or even the next season. I more wanted it discussed among the decision makers, which you stated you are going to do, so I am happy,
Thank You!


Really, I don't think it would change the whole scoring system, more so, just make a small adjustment.


Also, If someone squeezed out 1 more tick than the next guy for the win, hence a larger league point reward (& larger point gap over 2nd place), shouldn't it be the same on the opposite end of the spectrum?
Where if someone can pass a song they get a larger point reward than the next guy(s) who failed the song?

Interesting analogy you chose, I guess I see the points system a little different ideally. In any case though, thanks for listening, and taking it to the committee.
Good Luck with the changes to the League system!
(even if my change isn't in there)
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PieGuy  
 




Joined: 01 Mar 2007
Posts: 2836
Location: Long Island, NY

PostPosted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 6:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TheDave wrote:
Really, I don't think it would change the whole scoring system, more so, just make a small adjustment.
Actually, it would be a pretty substantial change. Observe the poorly made graphs and examples!

Right now, the league scoring system looks like this:


Player A finished last and scored no points, Player B finished next to last and scored 2 points. It doesn't matter if the difference is 4 points, 200,000 points, or even failing at 2% versus scoring 600,000 points. The points themselves don't matter (lolwhoseline), all that matters is relative placement.

Same with Players C and D. Player D finished first and received 100 points, Player C finished second and scored only 87. The difference could be as little as 1 point, but since the leagues run on relative placing rather than absolute scores, that's just the way it goes.

You suggest a system like this:

Where points are distributed solely based on performance, regardless of how others performed.

So, while a valid idea, it would be quite a change.
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daanish  
 




Joined: 25 Feb 2007
Posts: 413
Location: Stockholm - Sweden

PostPosted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 7:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

PieGuy wrote:
TheDave wrote:
Really, I don't think it would change the whole scoring system, more so, just make a small adjustment.
Actually, it would be a pretty substantial change. Observe the poorly made graphs and examples!

Right now, the league scoring system looks like this:


Player A finished last and scored no points, Player B finished next to last and scored 2 points. It doesn't matter if the difference is 4 points, 200,000 points, or even failing at 2% versus scoring 600,000 points. The points themselves don't matter (lolwhoseline), all that matters is relative placement.

Same with Players C and D. Player D finished first and received 100 points, Player C finished second and scored only 87. The difference could be as little as 1 point, but since the leagues run on relative placing rather than absolute scores, that's just the way it goes.

You suggest a system like this:

Where points are distributed solely based on performance, regardless of how others performed.

So, while a valid idea, it would be quite a change.


if i understood this corretly.. then i totally agree. is the difference between the 1st and the 2nd is just a tick by 4 oints the 1st gets 100 points and the 2nd might get arround 80-90 points.
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googleimage  
 




Joined: 23 Aug 2007
Posts: 1229

PostPosted: Thu Jul 10, 2008 4:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think I'm a fan of the "linear increase" score approach. This puts an undue emphasis on the harder songs, where the scores are highly varied. These songs already get enough attention as the ones you'll see in the last rounds of the playoffs. I'm not even a fan of saying "the lowest score = 0, highest score = 100, in-between scores increase linearly." This system emphasizes the easier songs, where everybody FC's the song but only 2 people pull off the squeeze. Suddenly, those two can pull off mediocre scores on everything else and it won't matter, because they garnered such a huge advantage on the one song. There's nothing wrong with the principle of the current rank system, and I can't think of a system that's ultimately more fair in the long run than the one in place.

Did you watch the Federer-Nadal finale at Wimbledon? Federer was absolutely brilliant, but since Nadal was a teeny tiny bit better, Federer ended up losing in the 5th set. It doesn't matter how well Federer played, he was still 2nd best. If he got his ass handed to him, he would have faced the same result. He has a lot more respect for putting up that fight, but you can't put respect in a trophy case.
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IWillKickU  
 




Joined: 06 Dec 2007
Posts: 2830
Location: In the Undertow

PostPosted: Thu Jul 10, 2008 2:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

googleimage wrote:
I don't think I'm a fan of the "linear increase" score approach. This puts an undue emphasis on the harder songs, where the scores are highly varied. These songs already get enough attention as the ones you'll see in the last rounds of the playoffs. I'm not even a fan of saying "the lowest score = 0, highest score = 100, in-between scores increase linearly." This system emphasizes the easier songs, where everybody FC's the song but only 2 people pull off the squeeze. Suddenly, those two can pull off mediocre scores on everything else and it won't matter, because they garnered such a huge advantage on the one song. There's nothing wrong with the principle of the current rank system, and I can't think of a system that's ultimately more fair in the long run than the one in place.


I was on the fence about scoring until this post. I'm IWillKickU, and I support curved increase.
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DanSoup  
 




Joined: 22 Sep 2007
Posts: 857
Location: Sheffield, UK

PostPosted: Thu Jul 10, 2008 6:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Has it been sugested that perhaps the RB and GH leagues be made seperate to take the pressure off the system/ participants?
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TheDave  
 




Joined: 04 Mar 2008
Posts: 636
Location: The OC

PostPosted: Thu Jul 10, 2008 7:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

PieGuy wrote:
TheDave wrote:
Really, I don't think it would change the whole scoring system, more so, just make a small adjustment.
Actually, it would be a pretty substantial change. Observe the poorly made graphs and examples!
<snip>


I guess I am suggesting this then:
Rather than start the league points scoring at 0, start it at like 7 or 10.

The the scale will still apply, and the lowest "non passing scores" (%'s), will just be given 1-2 points (just for submitting), then the first passing score gets the 7/10 point minimum, and the greater scores increase on a scale, exactly how it is currently done.

This way people who even pass the songs, are given a small reward for that.

Like I have said, it's only a suggestion of one way to handle it.

This would just be a small reward for the lower end players, who are playing for fun / improvement. It would also help drop people down the ranks quicker that didn't submit scores.
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Ghplayer3mth  
 




Joined: 25 Apr 2008
Posts: 410
Location: West Carrollton, OH

PostPosted: Thu Jul 10, 2008 9:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

daanish wrote:
PieGuy wrote:
TheDave wrote:
Really, I don't think it would change the whole scoring system, more so, just make a small adjustment.
Actually, it would be a pretty substantial change. Observe the poorly made graphs and examples!

Right now, the league scoring system looks like this:


Player A finished last and scored no points, Player B finished next to last and scored 2 points. It doesn't matter if the difference is 4 points, 200,000 points, or even failing at 2% versus scoring 600,000 points. The points themselves don't matter (lolwhoseline), all that matters is relative placement.

Same with Players C and D. Player D finished first and received 100 points, Player C finished second and scored only 87. The difference could be as little as 1 point, but since the leagues run on relative placing rather than absolute scores, that's just the way it goes.

You suggest a system like this:

Where points are distributed solely based on performance, regardless of how others performed.

So, while a valid idea, it would be quite a change.


if i understood this corretly.. then i totally agree. is the difference between the 1st and the 2nd is just a tick by 4 oints the 1st gets 100 points and the 2nd might get arround 80-90 points.


If you call that a Difference, then yes, in my eyes thats the difference. When it comes to ticks, you just gotta be lucky as hell. If you get the extra tick the other person didn't, then you get the max points I guess. 1st and 2nd place points though are determined by the points system as already pointed out. Not determined by a tick. If this was the case, we'd have Anarchy in the SH Leagues. But I hoped that answered your question.
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DrSham  
 




Joined: 16 Oct 2006
Posts: 1233
Location: Hallett Cove, South Australia

PostPosted: Thu Jul 10, 2008 9:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry Dave, can't agree. Where's the competition?

If people want to join a league then they get exactly what they deserve, if they're not good enough (which I am not and get trounced every season but play anyway) then at the botttom they shall be & if that means they don't get any points then so be it. That shouldn't stop anyone playing & if it does then they've got bigger issues to sort out.

Anyway, leagues are already split to group those players closer in skill together & that's how it should stay. If they're rubbish (like me) they'll be in the lowest tier & if they're at the bottom of that tier then it's where they deserve to be.
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Rocker0913  
 




Joined: 10 Jul 2007
Posts: 607
Location: Moncton, NB, Canada. BANDS WANTED HERE!

PostPosted: Thu Jul 10, 2008 11:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

eyewin8 wrote:
I really liked the poll song feature of past leagues. It kind of mixed the songs up a bit more and had more of a players input into it. It made you want to stick around a little longer, knowing that you had a bit of control over at least one song per week.


I completely agree. Basically my exact opinion on the subject, I vote that we should input the poll song back into the leagues.

Also, I agree with IWillKickU about decreasing the amount of leagues a person can enter. A lot of people went with the maximum, only to half-ass and quit half of them, and really focus on one or two(Me included). I would say two to three, one of them being reserved to a team slot. Or maybe, putting an unlimited amount of leagues and put a maximum to how many SONGS a person can have during that week. Next to each league and description, it would put how many songs per week, and the person can take how many leagues he or she wants until it passes the max songs number. I was thinking about 6 to 8. Like a person who would have a GH1 and GH2 league, each with 4 songs, but he cant take any more because he is at the maximum number amount of songs, which would be 8 in this case. It would be the same as a guy who would focus more on team leagues, as in he could have a Bass/Guitar Duet league (2 songs), Voxtar league (3 songs), and still have place for a league that is under or equal to 3.

I still say we should keep the same point system. It has been doing a good job, and it bases it not on the score, but instead compares you to the rest of the group you are in. But, I got an idea on what TheDave was saying:

TheDave wrote:
It would also help drop people down the ranks quicker that didn't submit scores.


Maybe we should be a little more strick about this. Instead of the people who arent registering scores, or say that they cannot participate anymore, and their name would still be in the standings, making it difficult to figure out who is out and who is still in, we could simply scratch their name of the list. By this, I am saying the league should simply remove the name from the standings, making the system less cluttered. To seperate those who are really quitting from those who cant play that week, but wishes to continue, it should be put as a warning at the signups for the leagues:

If you cant play a certain week, but wish to continue, PM the leagues administrator to indicate this. Failure to do this will result in your name being scratched off the list.

This should sort them out. Can someone please tell me what they think of these ideas?
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Boomsars  
 




Joined: 01 Jun 2007
Posts: 1273
Location: Arkansas

PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 12:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I gotta say I am pro more leagues and less sign ups, assuming that isn't a strain on league staff. For example, I don't have GH3, so I'm in the dark on most leagues right off the bat. The only league I would be interested in is a GH2H league, but with less leagues that (probably) wouldn't be possible.

But if people make the silly mistake of taking upon too much responsibility from a Guitar Hero competition, that's their own fault.
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eddaket  
 




Joined: 19 Jul 2007
Posts: 2013
Location: Burillville, Rhode Island

PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 1:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TheDave, the way you are suggesting is faulty in at least one respect.

By your method, getting 500k on Jordan would grant you the same amount of points as 500k on something like Freebird. That isn't fair at all. With the way it is now, it makes much more sense. You get 500k on Jordan and you are in first, while you get 500k on Freebird, you could be 20th. Different amount of points awarded for different songs. The point of leagues is to see how you do with the given competition, not necessarily the best scores.
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