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pucktheduck  
 




Joined: 01 Mar 2008
Posts: 36
Location: Earth

PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 3:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's an idea (kind of an iffy one). Custom leagues! Each week, four well-charted songs (or fewer, if people find it too time-consuming) will be selected from the custom songs index and posted along with their download links. This way, people will be playing songs that they've never seen before, making things more interesting and also discouraging squeezing for the most part. Of course, those just looking to increase their scores by entering leagues shouldn't do this one.

Like I said, this one is questionable. But if enough people want to do it, and staff are willing to search the index for good charts, then why not?
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IWillKickU  
 




Joined: 06 Dec 2007
Posts: 2830
Location: In the Undertow

PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 2:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The idea for custom leagues has come up before, but it always gets the same response. No, because
A) Custom charts are too easy to modify (ie adding star power phrases were they don't belong).
B) Not everyone has access to the songs, and we DON'T want to encourage illegal downloading of MP3s, or requiring participants to spend more money when the already have the GH product. Same reason there's no DLC.
C) Customs require modified equipement (for most people), which Scorehero does not condone. Running a league that requires you to have a modded PS2 (that's the platform that most custom players use) would be officially condoning mod chips (something SH tries to stay away from for legal reasons).
D) There are simply WAY too many possibilities for custom songs, it would be increadibly time consuming for a mod or league commissioner to sort through them all to find good ones.
E) A player using GH3 customs would have a huge advantage over a player using GH2 customs because of the forgiving timing window. This puts people who don't have GH3 at a huge disadvantage, when leagues NEED to be fair across the board.
F) Because the custom database is so vast, Player A might not be better than Player B, but a custom was chosen that Player A actually wrote, and Player B has never even heard the song before. Player A is at a huge advantage regardless of skill differences.

If I racked my brain a bit, I sure I could come up with reasons G, H, and I, but Deimos said it best in another thread that I guess has been deleted:
Quote:
Right now, custom leagues are not happening.

If only I was blessed with Deimos's brevity.
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Heh333  
 




Joined: 27 Sep 2007
Posts: 6
Location: Finland

PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 10:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

FC or 100% league, little different from the others.

* 4 songs on every week
* All scores submitted must be FC or 100% (rather FC)
* If you can't FC all the songs in that week, you're out
* Songs get harder every week: First week songs easy like mississippi queen, when you were young etc.
and after that a little harder every week

The idea just came to my head, so I thought i'd post it.
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pucktheduck  
 




Joined: 01 Mar 2008
Posts: 36
Location: Earth

PostPosted: Fri Jul 25, 2008 12:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh... That makes sense, though. I had a feeling custom leagues wouldn't work, I just didn't know how.

heh333's idea sounds good. Except it might be a little hard for the novice players. I think I could hold my own on it, though. Also, top players who enter in this league might not get eliminated for a very long time, making this one considerably longer (or shorter, if only noobs sign up) than traditional leagues. This might screw up preparations for the next season.
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Rocker0913  
 




Joined: 10 Jul 2007
Posts: 607
Location: Moncton, NB, Canada. BANDS WANTED HERE!

PostPosted: Fri Jul 25, 2008 8:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Heh333 wrote:
FC or 100% league, little different from the others.

* 4 songs on every week
* All scores submitted must be FC or 100% (rather FC)
* If you can't FC all the songs in that week, you're out
* Songs get harder every week: First week songs easy like mississippi queen, when you were young etc.
and after that a little harder every week

The idea just came to my head, so I thought i'd post it.


I can see this as a very good idea for a rivalry, but not for a league. The reason? Like pucktheduck said, it would either last too short or too long. I see leagues trying to make things making things fair, While clearly, this would only favor the very top participants, while screwing the ones here for fun. What happens if youre out the first week? Youre out and its over that quick. I like the current format of four weeks of songs then playoffs, that way, everyone is guaranteed at least 4 weeks of competition, although your idea is an intriguing one.

Another flaw would be that it would be very difficult to do divisions to associate yourself with people of your own skill. In the current type of league, its easy because there is a qualifying week that makes it easy to put the member into a group associating to his skill level. In this type, however, we can only seperate by those who are eliminated from the leagues each week.

It would be motivating people to FC the songs thought, which cant hurt, but as I said again: In my view, great idea for a rivalry, not so much for a league.
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Raikri999  
 




Joined: 12 Jan 2008
Posts: 1573

PostPosted: Sat Jul 26, 2008 3:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rocker0913 wrote:
Heh333 wrote:
FC or 100% league, little different from the others.

* 4 songs on every week
* All scores submitted must be FC or 100% (rather FC)
* If you can't FC all the songs in that week, you're out
* Songs get harder every week: First week songs easy like mississippi queen, when you were young etc.
and after that a little harder every week

The idea just came to my head, so I thought i'd post it.


I can see this as a very good idea for a rivalry, but not for a league. The reason? Like pucktheduck said, it would either last too short or too long. I see leagues trying to make things making things fair, While clearly, this would only favor the very top participants, while screwing the ones here for fun. What happens if youre out the first week? Youre out and its over that quick. I like the current format of four weeks of songs then playoffs, that way, everyone is guaranteed at least 4 weeks of competition, although your idea is an intriguing one.

Another flaw would be that it would be very difficult to do divisions to associate yourself with people of your own skill. In the current type of league, its easy because there is a qualifying week that makes it easy to put the member into a group associating to his skill level. In this type, however, we can only seperate by those who are eliminated from the leagues each week.

It would be motivating people to FC the songs thought, which cant hurt, but as I said again: In my view, great idea for a rivalry, not so much for a league.
You also forget that you'd be required to show pictures(Sorta) because I could say I fc'd a song but I didn't really which would exclude some people
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Heh333  
 




Joined: 27 Sep 2007
Posts: 6
Location: Finland

PostPosted: Sat Jul 26, 2008 6:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I thought that the qualifying would be maybe 3 songs, for example slow ride, talk dirty to me and RARAN. If you FC all three, you're in AAA, 2 FC's to AA and one song FC takes you to the A-league, but then again theres the problem about pics
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petererk  
 




Joined: 30 Jun 2007
Posts: 879
Location: That place

PostPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 10:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think I'm actually going to put more than the first week's songs up this
time, and from what I saw GH3 was running pretty smooth. So I have
nothing to suggest. Keep up teh funz.
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sonicboom139  
 




Joined: 03 May 2007
Posts: 285
Location: St. Louis, MO

PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 12:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

With the whole points chart system, I can see the complaints for losing 10 points for one tick. On the other hand, this chart works well for difficult songs such as Raining Blood and The Way it Ends. I have two ideas for ways to solve this.

1) Make a points system based off spread rather than place. This could involve something such as giving the top person 100, the bottom person 0, and putting the rest on a linear fit.
Strengths: So long as the top and bottom scores are reasonable, rewards good squeezing and hard FCs equally.
Weaknesses: If one person puts in a terrible score, possibly for doing the song only once, it screws the system over (basing points of median could solve?), linear fit is not always the best.

2) Using different point scales for different songs. e.g., if under 33% FCed the song, use current scale, if 33% to 67% FCed the song, use a different scale, and if over 67% FCed the song, use a third scale. Whatever scales are appropriate remains to be seen.
Strengths: Uses a variety of approaches to tackle different problems
Weaknesses: Depends on the scales, also could be difficult to set up

Amirite?
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Ieattables  
 




Joined: 31 Jul 2008
Posts: 56

PostPosted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 1:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've been experimenting with different formulae for the score system taking current scores into account, and I've made a fomula which I think gives a fairer points spread. On close songs (I believe I used the S9 AAA1 league scores for MHL), it gives very close the the current amount of points - a distribution which is quite fair to everyone really. But on songs with more variation, it awards players who might have scores very close together with more points and players significantly behind them with less. The example I used was from S9 A3 (I think) scores for Monsters.

The main problem with the formula is that it's a bit of a beast, to the point where this is going to go over most people's heads until they read it a few times.

Basically, you need the following calculations:
Standard Deviation of scores.
Average of Score (call it A)
With the Standard Deviation (Call it sd), do the following calculation: 1-sd/[number of scores submitted]. You should get a value between 0.5-1, very close to 1 for close songs and around 0.6-0.8 for more varied songs (I had 0.970 and 0.712). Call this value D.

There are also:
x, the normalised rank
S, the users score
H, the high score (1st places score).

Now, the formula:
= (62.5x + 7.5x^4 + 30x^7) * D + Max ((H - (S - A)) / A, 0) * (1 - D) * 100

The easiest way of understanding it will probably be to take a few leagues, apply to formula to them and see what happens to the scores. Also, I would recommend that users who only submit a completion % should be ignored in calculating the average and standard deviation, but their scores should be treated as 0 when applying the formula. This has the added benefit of giving a significant advantage to players who complete the song (in my second set of data, if the player in last had failed the song he would have gotten 5 less points).

The only problem with the formula (asides from being even more complex ) is that it awards slightly more points in general. Not many, 0-3 on close songs and about 2-10 more in less close songs. But it's a general increase in points across the board especially around the bottom. I'm sure that can be fixed though by tweaking the initial formula (the (62.5x + 7.5x^4 + 30x^7) bit).

Edit: Okay, here's some examples, Sonicboom. This is the data I mentioned above. I had a bit of trouble getting it to align correctly, but it should be okay. All values are rounded to 3 d.p, as well.

Code:
Data set 1 (IIRC, MHL from AAA1)

Score   Position   Normal   New   Difference
193994   1     100       100        0
193962   0.947   85.799   86.226   0.427
193754   0.868   69.717   70.624   0.908
193754   0.868   69.717   70.624   0.908
193736   0.789   57.990   59.250   1.260
193546   0.737   51.801   53.245   1.444
193338   0.684   46.513   48.112   1.600
193278   0.632   41.870   43.608   1.738
193230   0.579   37.681   39.545   1.864
192904   0.526   33.806   35.781   1.975
192813   0.474   30.143   32.227   2.084
192630   0.421   26.622   28.809   2.187
191994   0.368   23.192   25.472   2.280
190057   0.316   19.821   22.172   2.351
189544   0.263   16.486   18.929   2.443
188772   0.211   13.173   15.704   2.531
185745   0.158   9.873   12.456   2.582
180684   0.105   6.580   9.181   2.601
170039   0.053   3.290   5.822   2.532

H = 193994
D = 0.970
A = 190409.158

Data Set 2 (IIRC, Monsters from A2/3)

Score   Position   Normal   New   Difference
345000   1     100       100        0
340004   0.923   80.269   85.371   5.102
305679   0.846   66.046   71.212   5.166
255253   0.769   55.484   57.763   2.280
245223   0.692   47.279   50.745   3.466
240890   0.615   40.540   45.439   4.899
240835   0.538   34.678   41.261   6.583
224903   0.462   29.320   35.574   6.254
219505   0.385   24.240   31.324   7.084
215580   0.308   19.306   27.351   8.045
211957   0.231   14.445   23.466   9.021
200131   0.154   9.620   18.641   9.021
141783   0.077   4.808   8.353   3.545


H = 345000
D = 0.712
A = 245134.077


I also forgot to mention what the Max ( ) bit is for: If someone does particularly badly; or fails the song but still submits it, this ensures they don't get a negative from the average - which would end up giving them possibly something like -40 points instead of 2 or 3.


Last edited by Ieattables on Thu Aug 14, 2008 2:36 pm; edited 1 time in total
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sonicboom139  
 




Joined: 03 May 2007
Posts: 285
Location: St. Louis, MO

PostPosted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 3:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That idea definitely deserves a test run in S10, assuming it can be done without killing Deimos. This formula could be the new standard in leagues and I am strongly in favor of it. I think it would be easier to understand, however, if you used an example of how the formula works to give readers a clearer idea of what you're talking about (even I'm not totally sure, but the general idea and variables taken into account sound great.)
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googleimage  
 




Joined: 23 Aug 2007
Posts: 1229

PostPosted: Sat Aug 16, 2008 8:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Do you have a dataset of two songs such that the number of submitted scores are exactly the same? Even if you could throw in a few hypothetical scores in the mix that would be really helpful. It looks like the gist of the idea is that the spread of the submitted scores would have an effect on the overall point allotments. I would expect that the majority of the score distributions would be left-skewed (i.e. the average score would be much lower than the median, as the top half is bunched up), and that this would be more pronounced in the squeeze-fests. I'm interested in seeing what effect it actually has on the scores.
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Ieattables  
 




Joined: 31 Jul 2008
Posts: 56

PostPosted: Sat Aug 16, 2008 11:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay, I've been experimenting a little more, and have come up with the following: f(x)=30x+42.5x^2+10x^4+17.5x^7.
Compared to the old formula, a few more points are given around the top (actually, just under a point). Around the x=0.8 mark the points are equal, but then this formula starts giving less points with somewhere around x=0.38 being the biggest gap of a little under 6.2 points. Then the gap begins to close up, with obviously x=0 being identical for both.

Now, when you combine it into my formula above, things become a little more interesting:

= (30x + 42.5x^2 + 10x^4 + 17.5x^7) * D + Max ((H - (S - A)) / A, 0) * (1 - D) * 100.

Having looked through my test data, this does seem a much fairer formula. People very close to the top in less close songs will get more points - but still quite a bit less than the leader. In very close songs, there's not a lot of change, although people lingering around 2/3s of the way through the pack lose a couple of points.

I'll get a few more examples using this formula sometime tommorow, possibly.

Edit: Not enough hours in the day to do that, unfortunately. However, if the Planning Committee like the idea I'm sure they have the resources to test the formula themselves and see what they think of the results since I'm going to be away for a while now.

Also, for the non-maths nerds who have read this formula, seen the examples and are still thinking 'what on earth is this formula about?', here's a brief description:

Your points are still based mainly on rank
Some points will be awarded based on your score.
The more varied the scores submitted, the more points that will be awarded for score. Conversely, in very close songs score will have a minimal effect, making placement more important.
First place still gets 100 points and everyone else gets less.
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Banditman31  
 




Joined: 18 Aug 2008
Posts: 115
Location: Parker, Colorado

PostPosted: Mon Aug 25, 2008 2:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i would suggest for a twist,
a guitar duet,
1 person is strumming, and ur pushing the buttons
Ps. if this is a bad idea, dont bash me, just giving a suggestion
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SeanDread  
 




Joined: 27 Feb 2007
Posts: 30

PostPosted: Mon Sep 01, 2008 6:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

How about a Hendrix League? Participants would play each song in both lefty flip as well as the standard right-handed position, and then average their best scores in each playing style to determine their score on the songs for the week.
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