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ThunderAlex
Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 3480
Location: Land of Genesis... where angels lose their way
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 Posted: Fri Jan 09, 2009 1:57 am Post subject: |
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The best part of your gigantic message (which I read from the top to the bottom) was the last sentence, but I was too lazy to quote you all and to delete the rest, or to copy your name, make a quote, copy the text and paste it XD
So yeah, for all the posters above, I find Melee a slight better too, but only because I was disappointed that Roy isn't in Brawl, it was my favorite character in Melee, and my main, and I held the record for the sandbag contest with him (499.7m XD) and whatever not, so I'm really really disappointed that Roy isn't in Brawl 
Oh yeah, PiemanLK, that stage sounds awesome >____>
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Archang3L
Joined: 22 Jan 2008
Posts: 877
Location: Melbourne, Australia
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PiemanLK
Joined: 03 Dec 2007
Posts: 4711
Location: /export/home
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| Posted: Fri Jan 09, 2009 11:46 am Post subject: Re: Super Smash Brothers Brawl |
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| ThunderAlex wrote: | | Oh yeah, PiemanLK, that stage sounds awesome >____> |
I'll post my friend code here sometime and I can give it to anyone who wants it if they'd like. Maybe a screenshot too just so you can see how ridiculous it is before you play on it. 
| Archang3L wrote: | | PiemanLK wrote: |
Oh, and tiers/stage banning is for idiots. Real men just take what they like/what they're given and find a way to make it work instead of whining about how cheap it is.  |
Sorry, but that's just wrong.
Tiers are necessary in a game as unbalanced as Brawl, I'm afraid. As is stage banning. You think you can have a fair fight on a stage like the Donkey Kong arcade stage?
As a matter of fact, the opposite of what you just said is true. Not having a tier list and allowing every stage in competitive play is sheer stupidity. |
"FINALLY, THE BEST VERSION OF SSB, WITH TONS OF ITEMS NEW STAGES NEW MODES AND NEW CHARACTERS WE WHINED ABOUT, WHAT DO WE DO?"
"NO ITEMS, FOX ONLY, FINAL DESTINATION!"
Yes, I do like those videos. 
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[quote=''Otend'']Id come up with a long post, but Pieman said what we are all thinking, as usual[/quote]
[quote=''youhas'']EDIT TO ADD: Hey, post #3000! Neat! I will eagerly anticipate my set of ScoreHero-branded steak knives within six to eight weeks.[/quote]
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ManfredvonKarma 
Joined: 31 Oct 2007
Posts: 3783
Location: Toms River, NJ
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| Posted: Fri Jan 09, 2009 11:54 am Post subject: Re: Super Smash Brothers Brawl |
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| Archang3L wrote: | | Tiers are necessary in a game as unbalanced as Brawl, I'm afraid. As is stage banning. You think you can have a fair fight on a stage like the Donkey Kong arcade stage? |
How can they be necessary? Tiers are just something that happens. Tier lists are usually just common sense. Most people will tell you that someone playing Meta Knight will beat someone playing as Bowser.
You can absolutely have a fair fight on the DK Arcade stage, by the way. Both players have to deal with the random-ness of it - fair.
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This is my first post in this thread so:
I love Brawl. It's an amazing game to play with friends or alone.
I'm fairly good with most of the characters, but my best/favorites are:
Meta Knight, Pit, Wario, Marth, Zelda (never Sheik), and Luigi.
I'd love to play online with people, but my Wii's online capabilities were broken out of box and I had no way of knowing until the warranty was up.
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Archang3L
Joined: 22 Jan 2008
Posts: 877
Location: Melbourne, Australia
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PiemanLK
Joined: 03 Dec 2007
Posts: 4711
Location: /export/home
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| Posted: Fri Jan 09, 2009 9:57 pm Post subject: Re: Super Smash Brothers Brawl |
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| Archang3L wrote: | | Tiers are necessary so that people who want to play Smash competitively know which characters to use. Someone starting out won't know which characters are best, and it won't be much fun training with every single character in the game to try and figure out who sucks and who doesn't. That's where tier lists come in handy - takes 30 seconds and you can see which characters are the best in the game and are actually worth training with. |
That really takes the fun and skill out of Brawl. Don't pick your favorite character and try to get good with them, just go with what someone else said! Why try and learn to play the game when you can just read how to play a character the way someone else does it instead of coming up with a way to play on your own? IMO tier lists are just a way of saying "This character is too hard to learn to play with I suck at this game."
| Archang3L wrote: | | And regarding 75m, a stage where you're forced to focus more on the stage rather than your opponent is not a suitable stage to have a fair match on. Particularly when the hazards jump around - therefore giving smaller characters an advantage. It's also just too big - suffering from the same problem Hyrule Temple had(well, has). Characters such as Fox can constantly run away and pepper you with blaster shots while you're avoiding the streams of hazards. |
But that's what sets apart Brawl from other games. It's more fun when you have something interesting to keep the game fresh. I'm tired of people saying "waaah I have to pay attention to what's going on instead of button mashing with meta knight!!1!1" Can't deal with the stage? Go play something easier. If I had to play Final Destination all day I would kill myself. I myself love Spear Pillar but I'm a huge Pokemon fan, so. 
| Quote: | | Don't worry, you aren't missing out on much. Brawl online is laggy as heck. >_> |
I only notice the lag when they're far away. I played with a few Australian friends once and it was awful, but in the same town or state it's not bad.
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[quote=''Otend'']Id come up with a long post, but Pieman said what we are all thinking, as usual[/quote]
[quote=''youhas'']EDIT TO ADD: Hey, post #3000! Neat! I will eagerly anticipate my set of ScoreHero-branded steak knives within six to eight weeks.[/quote]
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Archang3L
Joined: 22 Jan 2008
Posts: 877
Location: Melbourne, Australia
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| Posted: Fri Jan 09, 2009 11:28 pm Post subject: Re: Super Smash Brothers Brawl |
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| PiemanLK wrote: |
That really takes the fun and skill out of Brawl. Don't pick your favorite character and try to get good with them, just go with what someone else said! Why try and learn to play the game when you can just read how to play a character the way someone else does it instead of coming up with a way to play on your own? IMO tier lists are just a way of saying "This character is too hard to learn to play with I suck at this game."
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I'm talking about competitive play. When you're playing in a tournament, fun comes second to winning.Not quite sure how it takes all the skill out of Brawl either. Also not sure what you're talking about when you said -
| PiemanLK wrote: |
Why try and learn to play the game when you can just read how to play a character the way someone else does it instead of coming up with a way to play on your own?
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- because I never mentioned looking up strategies, but I fail to see what's wrong with looking up hints and tips for your chosen character.
| PiemanLK wrote: |
IMO tier lists are just a way of saying "This character is too hard to learn to play with I suck at this game."
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But R.O.B is a better character than Ganondorf. Doesn't matter if you spend ages training with Gandondorf - you're at a disadvantage against R.O.B, because R.O.B is the better character. That's not really my opinion, that's fact.
Just ... remember that I'm talking about playing competitively here. When you're playing casual, of course you can play with Captain Falcon and duel on 75m all day long. Hell, I do. But when you're playing competitively, tiers and stage banning are necessary.
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FINALLY PASSED JORDAN! 23/05/09
"You're not smart. You're not a scientist. You're not a doctor. You're not even a full time employee. Where did your life go so wrong?" |
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PiemanLK
Joined: 03 Dec 2007
Posts: 4711
Location: /export/home
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| Posted: Fri Jan 09, 2009 11:52 pm Post subject: Re: Super Smash Brothers Brawl |
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| Archang3L wrote: | | But when you're playing competitively, tiers and stage banning are necessary. |
I really don't see why. I can understand that some characters may be better than another but that doesn't stop you from winning with other people, which makes tiers pointless. If I kick everyone's ass with someone low tier and it works, why use someone from a "higher" tier just because it's higher up? I still believe that Brawl, like most games, is still mostly a game of skill and a good character can be ruined by a bad player and a good player can make the best of a bad character. It's not this set thing that can be described by arbitrary tiers; there's another variable of how good the player that is using the character is and I firmly believe that outweights any disadvantages a character may have against another. Feel free to ignore what I said before; it wasn't well thought out and worded poorly.
As far as banning stages go, I stick to what I said before; if you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen. I find it rather ironic than players claim they are "good" at the game but at the same time whine about falling barrels and other traps in the 75m stage. It'd be like claiming to be good at Rock Band drums as long as you don't need to use the foot pedal. Yes, it adds a bit of randomness into the game, but it's not like it never existed in the first place. Even on Final Destination you can make a stupid mistake and wind up dead.
Oh and ThunderAlex, I think my best HRC character was Ganondorf. I forget how far, but it was at least 2,000 feet or something.
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[quote=''Otend'']Id come up with a long post, but Pieman said what we are all thinking, as usual[/quote]
[quote=''youhas'']EDIT TO ADD: Hey, post #3000! Neat! I will eagerly anticipate my set of ScoreHero-branded steak knives within six to eight weeks.[/quote]
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Archang3L
Joined: 22 Jan 2008
Posts: 877
Location: Melbourne, Australia
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| Posted: Sat Jan 10, 2009 12:42 am Post subject: Re: Super Smash Brothers Brawl |
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| PiemanLK wrote: |
I really don't see why. I can understand that some characters may be better than another but that doesn't stop you from winning with other people, which makes tiers pointless. If I kick everyone's ass with someone low tier and it works, why use someone from a "higher" tier just because it's higher up? I still believe that Brawl, like most games, is still mostly a game of skill and a good character can be ruined by a bad player and a good player can make the best of a bad character. It's not this set thing that can be described by arbitrary tiers; there's another variable of how good the player that is using the character is and I firmly believe that outweights any disadvantages a character may have against another. Feel free to ignore what I said before; it wasn't well thought out and worded poorly.
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You said yourself that some characters are better than other characters - so I'm not sure how that makes tiers pointless, when tiers are there to show you exactly which characters are better than the others.
By all means, I'm sure if you trained with a low tier character and kept playing against higher tier characters, you'd win a few games. Top tier characters aren't broken, they just have a strong advantage over lower-tiers
| PiemanLK wrote: |
If I kick everyone's ass with someone low tier and it works, why use someone from a "higher" tier just because it's higher up? |
Sure, you may be able to destroy all your friends with your low tier character of choice, but go to a tournament and you'll be destroyed by people using higher tier characters, even if you're extremely proficient with your low tier guy.
And the answer to your question - if you're playing casually, you shouldn't switch to a higher tiered character, because you're just playing for fun.. If you're playing in tournaments though, your low tier character will be a handicap to you.
I'm really not sure why tiers are a bad thing. If you're playing casually you can just ignore them.
| PiemanLK wrote: | | I still believe that Brawl, like most games, is still mostly a game of skill and a good character can be ruined by a bad player and a good player can make the best of a bad character. |
Of course if someone is a far worse player, they'll lose. But when you're both around the same skill level, the higher tiered character has a MUCH greater chance of winning.
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FINALLY PASSED JORDAN! 23/05/09
"You're not smart. You're not a scientist. You're not a doctor. You're not even a full time employee. Where did your life go so wrong?" |
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Worldkaos
Joined: 29 May 2007
Posts: 327
Location: Houston
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| Posted: Sat Jan 10, 2009 2:22 am Post subject: |
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I agree with everything that Archang3L has said. In a tournament where cash prizes are on the line, fun takes a backseat to winning. When $500 bucks is on the line and a car comes out of no where on Mute City and KO's you, you're telling me you'd be perfectly fine with that? I doubt it. The stage ban lists are designed to prevent crap like that from happening at tournaments. You don't like it, just don't play at tournaments.
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PiemanLK
Joined: 03 Dec 2007
Posts: 4711
Location: /export/home
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| Posted: Sat Jan 10, 2009 3:05 am Post subject: |
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| Worldkaos wrote: | | I agree with everything that Archang3L has said. In a tournament where cash prizes are on the line, fun takes a backseat to winning. When $500 bucks is on the line and a car comes out of no where on Mute City and KO's you, you're telling me you'd be perfectly fine with that? I doubt it. The stage ban lists are designed to prevent crap like that from happening at tournaments. You don't like it, just don't play at tournaments. |
I suppose that could be a bit unfair, but I don't think there's a lot of stages like that in Brawl TBH, and I see people with about five stages that are actually selectable on the stage selection screen. Pretty much EVERY stage is banned by some people except Final Destination. And it's not just tournaments. Perhaps I CAN see SOME stage banning in tournaments, begrudgingly, but there are people that play like this for fun. I'm big on opinions and "live and let live", but I can't say I UNDERSTAND how people find it fun to play the same thing over and over again.
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[quote=''Otend'']Id come up with a long post, but Pieman said what we are all thinking, as usual[/quote]
[quote=''youhas'']EDIT TO ADD: Hey, post #3000! Neat! I will eagerly anticipate my set of ScoreHero-branded steak knives within six to eight weeks.[/quote]
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Rawrspoon
Joined: 04 Sep 2008
Posts: 1597
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| Posted: Mon Jan 12, 2009 7:05 am Post subject: |
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| PiemanLK wrote: | | but I can't say I UNDERSTAND how people find it fun to play the same thing over and over again. |
Kinda like retrying the same song 2788543 times to get the FC? |
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Archang3L
Joined: 22 Jan 2008
Posts: 877
Location: Melbourne, Australia
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| Posted: Mon Jan 12, 2009 9:51 am Post subject: |
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| PiemanLK wrote: | | ... but I can't say I UNDERSTAND how people find it fun to play the same thing over and over again. |
I guess with me it depends on who my opponent is. For example, one of my friends - we're just playing for a laugh, so we'll turn on items and play on the wackier stages. However this is also because I'm noticeably better than her at the game, so if we constantly played under rules in which the better player always wins (eg, competitive rules) - it wouldn't be much fun for her because I'd very rarely lose.
With my second Brawl-playing friend however - he's just as good as I am, and so matches of pure skill are the most fun. If we're in the middle of a tense match and we've both got one stock remaining ... it will be very frustrating, and thus, not fun, if some random stage hazard takes one of us out.
As a matter of fact, thinking about it, I'm actually having more fun when I'm playing against the guy who's at my skill level. I guess I just find it frustrating and annoying when I'm beaten by someone not because of their skill, but because of a cheap item or stage hazard.
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FINALLY PASSED JORDAN! 23/05/09
"You're not smart. You're not a scientist. You're not a doctor. You're not even a full time employee. Where did your life go so wrong?" |
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PiemanLK
Joined: 03 Dec 2007
Posts: 4711
Location: /export/home
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| Posted: Mon Jan 12, 2009 4:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Archang3L wrote: | | As a matter of fact, thinking about it, I'm actually having more fun when I'm playing against the guy who's at my skill level. I guess I just find it frustrating and annoying when I'm beaten by someone not because of their skill, but because of a cheap item or stage hazard. |
I guess that's where we differ then. I've had some really good moments where I've done something batshit stupid or gotten nailed by the pink monster in New Pork City and can't stop laughing about them whenever I play with a bunch of friends. I have Guitar Hero to be serious about anyways; now THAT is not a fun game to mess up on. And when I say mess up I mean missing in Helicopter's main rifff and then FCing Get to the Chopper.
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[quote=''Otend'']Id come up with a long post, but Pieman said what we are all thinking, as usual[/quote]
[quote=''youhas'']EDIT TO ADD: Hey, post #3000! Neat! I will eagerly anticipate my set of ScoreHero-branded steak knives within six to eight weeks.[/quote]
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D0m0omod
Joined: 25 Aug 2007
Posts: 848
Location: Chicago, IL
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| Posted: Thu Jan 15, 2009 8:49 pm Post subject: |
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I've been playing Brawl at my friend's house the past 2 weeks or so and my God this game is fun. The last Smash game I played was the original for 64 and even then I never actually owned it (my cousin had it.) Yet, in the short time I've been playing this I've gotten pretty good at it. I absolutely hate the Wii-mote and have been using a wireless Gamecube controller.
I'm a beast with Sonic and the Pokemon Trainer. If Mewtwo wasn't wrongfully replaced I'd be using him too. If I'm playing to win (which is almost always) I'll use Sonic, although now that I know how to use Ivysaur effectively I'm creeping up on my skill with Sonic.
I might actually get a Wii for this, assuming my sister actually uses the Wii-motes. Lately I've been looking for a fun-factor game as I get my competitive fix from the Guitar Hero series. A long time ago I had an idea for a real-time Pokemon fighting game that didn't have turn-based attacks and this looks like the closest thing to it for now (even though there's only a few Pokemon in Brawl.)
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Frozen is Death, but I cannot die.
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