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GUIDE: Creating a GH or RB Chart Using FeedBack
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BankruptOnSellin  





Joined: 24 Jul 2008
Posts: 6

PostPosted: Fri Aug 08, 2008 6:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you SOOO much for this helped me out ALOT still working on my first chart the (/) key helps alot. The only thing I had trouble with was adding silence when I opened up the song in audacity it automaticly adds 30 seconds of silence and I couldnt find a option to change that.

So I had to delete exactly 28 seconds off but it wont let you highlight 28 seconds unless you zoom in ALOT it only lets you choose like 28.0014 or 27.997 unless you zoom in a bunch.

And then I had to figure out how to highlight the first 28 seconds because if you just click at 28 seconds and drag your mouse to the left to highlight everything it would take hours since you have to zoom in so much so I finally found a option under "edit">"select">"Start To Cursor" which makes it where when you zoom in and click at exactly 28 seconds then click start to cursor it will highlight the first 28 seconds then you just push delete.

So that took me awhile to figure out. I think maybe I might have a older version of audacity even tho it looks the same as the one in your pics but maybe mention something about that =P.

Thanks again for the guide ill tell you when I finish my first chart
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TSorbera  





Joined: 19 Apr 2008
Posts: 2152

PostPosted: Fri Aug 08, 2008 6:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BankruptOnSellin wrote:
Thank you SOOO much for this helped me out ALOT still working on my first chart the (/) key helps alot. The only thing I had trouble with was adding silence when I opened up the song in audacity it automaticly adds 30 seconds of silence and I couldnt find a option to change that.

So I had to delete exactly 28 seconds off but it wont let you highlight 28 seconds unless you zoom in ALOT it only lets you choose like 28.0014 or 27.997 unless you zoom in a bunch.

And then I had to figure out how to highlight the first 28 seconds because if you just click at 28 seconds and drag your mouse to the left to highlight everything it would take hours since you have to zoom in so much so I finally found a option under "edit">"select">"Start To Cursor" which makes it where when you zoom in and click at exactly 28 seconds then click start to cursor it will highlight the first 28 seconds then you just push delete.

So that took me awhile to figure out. I think maybe I might have a older version of audacity even tho it looks the same as the one in your pics but maybe mention something about that =P.

Thanks again for the guide ill tell you when I finish my first chart
This is how older versions of Audacity used to do silence. Get the newest version (stable or beta will work) from http://audacity.sourceforge.net/
Maybe they just haven't changed the look much since they made the 30 > selectable change for silence.
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BankruptOnSellin  





Joined: 24 Jul 2008
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 08, 2008 7:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I figured thats what was wrong, not really a issue now was just a pain trying to figure out how to get rid of the extra silence. But now that I know what im doing wont take long to delete the extra 28 seconds
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inimitable  





Joined: 16 Feb 2007
Posts: 2324

PostPosted: Fri Aug 08, 2008 8:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks to TSorbera and EastWinn for a few changes I've made. Looks like I forgot to get rid of that placeholder for the link!


BankruptOnSellin wrote:
I figured thats what was wrong, not really a issue now was just a pain trying to figure out how to get rid of the extra silence. But now that I know what im doing wont take long to delete the extra 28 seconds

You really ought to just download the newest version. They're still free, after all.


BobDole wrote:
Really? This could be very hard if tempo changes/time signature changes occur. Changing the tempo only every 15-30 seconds would mean only "decent" sync since the tempo might slightly change within that time.

Well, to clarify, I believe what the guide recommends is anchoring according to the song. For example, the song I created for use in the guide (the Stratovarius song) has an incredibly stable tempo and really only requires very minute changes every 30 seconds or so. On the other hand, I've charted a couple songs that were seemingly recorded without a metronome or any tempo-keeping device, because it wanders all over the place. These obviously require more than an anchor every 15-30 seconds.

BobDole wrote:
Also, your guide only teaches syncing by the use of anchors. It should also teach the other way too (no anchors). The "trial and error" method as you call it is not as hard as you make it seem. After you find the average tempo (95 bpm lets say... no decimals), you just set it at that and then listen to it at half speed with claps on (after you have charted out a few measures) and make sure its synced. It's pretty easy to tell if the claps are going slighty too fast or if they are dragging a little. You can just go back to a measure before that starts happening, change the tempo by 1 bpm and it will probably be in sync. Some good drummers (or metronomes if the band used one while recording) can keep the band very steady though and you won't have to do much sync work.

I agree in that it's not wrong to do it this way; I used to do it myself before I understood the anchoring system. But essentially I see this as "well, I could keep it at 95 until I feel it's out of sync, then change it to 94, OR I could let dB mathematically calculate the exact BPM between these two points." It's not like you set an anchor at the beginning at an anchor at the end of the song because it has a steady tempo; you use multiple anchors to ensure any meandering BPMs are found and accounted for. If the BPM is actually 94.93 instead of 95, I'd much rather have the .07 than try to try to figure out by ear where I should drop the BPM to 94.

BobDole wrote:
I'm guessing with anchors you just make sure the start of the next section is in sync and then you let feedback change the tempo at the start of the section before that so that the first note lines up. This could make the sync kind of bad since your just using an average tempo for the section. Sometimes too many anchors can also cause tempo changes of over 10 in the middle of notes which can make the chart harder to play.

I find it kind of funny that you criticize an "average tempo" when in your last point you just essentially suggested using average tempos. Dropping from 95 to 94 when it sounds like you need to isn't exactly the most accurate way to do things.

It also sounds like you're simply not familiar with anchors. You obviously can't just place them willy-nilly wherever you want to. If a song has a section that somehow magically causes anchors to drop your BPM 10 for a few seconds then back up 10 again, then you're using them wrong - this means you've anchored the point in time to the wrong beat on the chart. Either that or the song is just nuts, which I suppose happens too!

Also, sometimes using an average BPM is beneficial to a chart. For example, in live performance charts, guitarists obviously have more erratic timing than than studio versions. To chart each note exactly when the guitarist plays it can be really annoying and no fun to play, because the player has to adapt to a sometimes arbitrary tempo. That's not to say you shouldn't mimic the guitarist's timing, but rather that allowing a note to be a small fraction of a second off for the sake of not being a pain in the ass to play is more beneficial than absolute accuracy in a lot of cases.

BobDole wrote:
Overall I think anchors are good if you messed up in the middle of your song sync wise. The use of them every measure or so in charts can be bad though. How do you know that "pulse" in audacity isn't just a bass drum hit? What if the guitar is kind of low in volume in your song and you can't really see it's "pulses" very easily?

It's really just a matter of a trained eye. you have to know what you're looking for, and until you develop a habit of finding things like this it can be a bit unreliable. That's why I specifically recommend going back in dB and listening at half speed to the point you anchored to ensure you're using the correct "pulse." I've been using this method for ages, and every time I anchor a point I still go back and listen a number of times to make sure I haven't made a mistake.


Overall, I've found anchors to be a far more reliable way to sync and chart a song, and I think a majority of the experienced charters here on SH would agree with me. Like I said before, that doesn't make any other method wrong, I just think that the method described in the guide is the best way to do it. Obviously as newbies gain more experience with charting, they can deviate in any way they like, and I'm sure some will find they prefer to do it some other way.
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BobDole  





Joined: 25 Sep 2006
Posts: 2150
Location: Troy, New York

PostPosted: Fri Aug 08, 2008 10:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anchors are good only if you use them correctly and not just put them every 30 seconds or so and let the sync be "okay" as long as it lines up at the end. I would assume the good charters that use anchors don't do this, and if this happened then they would try putting an anchor in the middle of the section and if it was still out, then more anchors would be put in. The average tempo thing is what I'm talking about if you don't use anchors correctly (just make sure the end of the section lines up) and I've seen the 10+ bmp changes in charts of a respected charter (wont say their name) and I've also seen anchors about every 2 seconds through out a song.

The way of syncing I was talking about (changing the tempo when it feels off) is not really an "average" tempo thing. Usually the tempo is either slightly slow or slightly fast, and if it starts going out about a measure or two after your last tempo change, then that's probably what you should change. If you listen and the song starts going out of sync in the SLIGHTEST manner at all after 2 measures or so (depending on tempo) then you should go back there where it started to go out of sync (or a measure before, it depends) and not to your last tempo change since if you changed your last tempo marking then the first 2 measures after it will be out of sync. When I mean out of sync at all, I mean that if you were listening with claps on at full speed, it would probably sound perfect to you and if you were a lazy charter then you would just leave it as it is since the sync is "decent" and good enough to be playable.

In the end, I guess anchors are just a different way to syncing. The only problem with them is if the charter is lazy with them and doesn't go back to check themself then they can result in drastic tempo changes, wrong rhythms, or the "average tempo" deal. The same kind of thing can happen with traditional syncing though to. If a charter doesn't feel like spending a lot of time perfecting the sync then they can just listen to it at full speed with claps on and change the tempo when they hear it starting to go out. Doing this will only make the sync "playable" though.

Sync-wise I would say that anchors cant give you "better" sync than the traditional way. If it sounds dead on at half speed with claps, its good enough. Honestly, if you put an anchor there right on the pulse so it is technically perfectly in sync, it'll probably be within .010 milliseconds. Even at half speed you probably wouldn't be able to tell that amount of difference at all so it doesn't really matter honestly.

P.S. Guitar Hero II's charts were perfectly in sync and all tempo changes are either whole numbers or .5 (like 159.5) which means no anchors were used. Anchors are not required to get perfect sync.
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Chil  





Joined: 05 Jan 2007
Posts: 850
Location: Delaware

PostPosted: Fri Aug 08, 2008 10:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with BobDole that anchoring is a quasi-artform and general guidelines like "once every 30 seconds" have no credibility. I use the anchor system because it's alot easier for me to do. Infact, I like to start a chart by anchoring the beginning of every other measure and then going from there to see if more are needed. If you look at my Holy Wars chart, I used a crazy amount of anchors, but I felt it was necessary because the song is so fast that minute changes in tempo make a huge difference.

The traditional method of syncing can most certainly yield the same results as anchors. The problem comes with execution. The majority of traditionally synced charts are done so in a reactionary style, and anchors don't really allow you to make a mistake like that.
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Finalizer  





Joined: 18 Apr 2007
Posts: 1413

PostPosted: Fri Aug 08, 2008 11:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BobDole wrote:
I've seen the 10+ bmp changes in charts of a respected charter (wont say their name)


*Cough*

I think you just need to realize that anchors are simply an easier way to do what you're already doing, or can be used in the same way. It's just a way to let FeedBack find the correct tempo, rather than spend extra time doing so yourself.

Sure, anchors can yield poor sync if not used correctly, but so can traditional BPM syncing. However, if you're using anchors, you don't have to worry about re-syncing the entire song, as you just have to correct that one, single anchor instead, so there's no worry if you accidentally anchored to the wrong pulse in Audacity. And just because Harmonix didn't use a system like this in GH2 doesn't mean it's a bad system, it's actually a very effective and time-saving system.

I pretty much do what Chil does- Anchor every measure, and add more anchors should it be necessary. It's a system that has worked well for me, and it sure beats the hell out of playing with the BPM until I get a number that's 'good enough.' (Bad memories of charting Black Hole Sun come to mind...)
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BobDole  





Joined: 25 Sep 2006
Posts: 2150
Location: Troy, New York

PostPosted: Fri Aug 08, 2008 11:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Sure, anchors can yield poor sync if not used correctly, but so can traditional BPM syncing. However, if you're using anchors, you don't have to worry about re-syncing the entire song, as you just have to correct that one, single anchor instead, so there's no worry if you accidentally anchored to the wrong pulse in Audacity. And just because Harmonix didn't use a system like this in GH2 doesn't mean it's a bad system, it's actually a very effective and time-saving system.


I agree completely with this but I didn't say anchoring was a bad system because Harmonix doesn't use it, I'm just saying that anchors are not the only way to achieve perfect sync.

The traditional method is only frustrating if the band isn't good at keeping a steady tempo and you have to change it every measure (or sometimes in the middle of measures). Usually the band is talented enough to keep the tempo stable for atleast 3-4 measures and with that it's pretty easy to keep the song in sync as long as you have some experience with it.

I'm not trying to say anchors aren't a good way to sync charts, but they can give you some problems if your lazy with them or don't have much musical knowledge. The same thing can happen with the traditional method though so really in the end it's just prefence.
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TSorbera  





Joined: 19 Apr 2008
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 08, 2008 11:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BobDole wrote:
Usually the band is talented enough to keep the tempo stable for atleast 3-4 measures and with that it's pretty easy to keep the song in sync as long as you have some experience with it.
A Hillsong United song (My Future Decided) I'm currently charting as my first chart (the other three under my name linked in my sig were my brother's, but I uploaded), has 22 measures (so far, it's where I've stopped so far, that's from 14.241-48.978 seconds) where the BPM is precisely 152. That's anchored with Audacity, so I know it's precise +/- a few milliseconds (the inaccuracy of my placing the selection on the sound). I don't know if they're just ridiculously good at keeping time, or if they have a metronome or edit the sound or what. I tried to add an anchor along the way, but it was precisely the same also, 152 BPM, so it's a useless anchor.
So it's not impossible for a song to be accurate for many more than 3-4 measures.
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BobDole  





Joined: 25 Sep 2006
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 09, 2008 1:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well it mostly depends on if the band used a metronome and how talented the drummer is and the type of drumming he's doing. I wasn't aware that you could edit a recording to make it stay precisely at a certain tempo (don't know why a band would even care since normal people listening to the song wouldn't be able to tell the difference).

Most likely the band used a metronome and the drummer was atleast pretty good and wasn't playing anything really fast or insane.
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inimitable  





Joined: 16 Feb 2007
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 09, 2008 8:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In my next mini-update I'll add an addendum that states anchors aren't the only way to go about syncing, if you think that'll make it a bit more fair.

But it won't be favorable!
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TSorbera  





Joined: 19 Apr 2008
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 09, 2008 10:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BobDole wrote:
Well it mostly depends on if the band used a metronome and how talented the drummer is and the type of drumming he's doing. I wasn't aware that you could edit a recording to make it stay precisely at a certain tempo (don't know why a band would even care since normal people listening to the song wouldn't be able to tell the difference).

Most likely the band used a metronome and the drummer was atleast pretty good and wasn't playing anything really fast or insane.
Well, I've never actually heard that it's possible to edit the sound like that and make it still sound good, but theoretically you could speed up/slow down different measures of sound slightly to make it perfect, but I agree with you in the part you put in parentheses. With a very high quality original recording and high quality sound editing software, I'd think this would be possible with good results, if ridiculous in theory.
Yeah, they probably used a metronome, and all of their people are good. The album wasn't a live recording, so a metronome is, well, at least possible.

My point, anyway, wasn't so much asking how these people did it as stating that it's most definitely not impossible for bands to keep precise rhythms more than 3-4 measures.
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TheZeppelin  





Joined: 01 Jun 2008
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 10, 2008 2:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

K i NEED TO ASK THIS QUESTION! HOW TO U PUT STAR POWER!
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BobDole  





Joined: 25 Sep 2006
Posts: 2150
Location: Troy, New York

PostPosted: Sun Aug 10, 2008 2:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
K i NEED TO ASK THIS QUESTION! HOW TO U PUT STAR POWER!

Hold down "8" and press up as if it were a sustain note. A blue line should appear on the left. Just remember that if it ends right on a note, that note will not be in the starpower phrase.

EDIT->
Quote:
Star Power

Star Power is placed exactly like Co-op sections are placed, but with a different key. Hold the “8” key and select a series of notes you want to contain the raw, unfiltered energy of the stars. Star Power is designated as a blue line that appears to the left of the track.
Like Face-Off sections, to include a note as Star Power the line must extend past the note.


How much Star Power you put into your song and where you put it is up to you. For really good advice, look no further than the official Guitar Hero charts! You can find these available on ScoreHero. To give you a rough idea, in a 5-minute, average difficulty song, 8 Star Power segments is reasonable.

This is from the guide, which makes me question why you asked how to do something that the guide covered.
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inimitable  





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PostPosted: Sun Aug 10, 2008 5:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here at the FeedBack Guide we do not negotiate with terrorists, caps lock enthusiasts, idiots, or any combination of the above.

Please keep your arms, legs, and various extremities inside the
Guide at all times. For your own safety, remember to disregard the whining of those who clearly have made absolutely no effort to solve their own problems before making a fool of themselves.

Thank you for helping keep the
FeedBack Guide a safer, cleaner, better place!
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