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GesterX 
Joined: 24 Dec 2007
Posts: 1242
Location: Birmingham, UK
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 Posted: Mon Dec 20, 2010 12:06 pm Post subject: American Attitudes towards Atheism |
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DISCLAIMER
This thread will without doubt be closed if people start getting offensive towards others. Debate is encouraged but can we keep it civil! This thread is NOT for debating the existance of God.
Recently I have been researching and studying American attitudes towards Atheism. While this has been extremely interesting it has also been slightly alarming in a sense. Where I live, in the UK, around 35% of people are Agnostic or Atheist (that number is expected rise after the 2011 census), and generally Atheism is respected by the majority of believers. "Coming out as an Atheist" is common and generally happens over time depending on background and up-bringing.
Now, in my research it seems that the USA is a VERY different place to the UK with regards to Atheism! Americans in general seem to see religion (or a lack of) as more a part of their identity. From the various media clips, blogs, and articles I have investigated it seems that coming out as an Atheist is almost on-par with coming out as homosexual. I've seen ample stories of people being disowned by family and the community simply for not believing in a God.
So with the above in mind I have some talking points that people might want to discuss:
1. Is America ready for an Atheist President?
From what I have seen I would say NO! Many of the candidates in the recent council elections seem to strongly incorporate Christian themes into their campaign. ("He goes to Church every Sunday... he MUST be great!!!"). This is extremely surprising, since as far as I am aware, your founding fathers created the country in a way that Church and State were seperated. Yet it seems that religion will always play a big part in elections in America. When we compare this to the UK election... well let's just say the majority of people don't care.
2. Will America get more or less religious over the years to come?
In my opinion there is a divide that is slowly becoming more and more clear between the religious and non-religious. However, I think religion is very important to America and it will probably grow faster as time goes by.
3. Why are so many people offended by the existance of Atheism?
This has a clip to go with it!
Good Without God Bus Campaign
How can this be offensive to anyone!? It is simply stating that some people are Atheists but they are still able to be morally good without a belief in God. I believe this was designed to combat the common question "Where do Atheists get morals if not from [insert holy book]?".
4. WHAT IS WITH FOX NEWS!!?
Many of the clips I have come across have been from Fox News. Now you may as well rename Fox News to Jesus TV!! The amount of general ignorance and blatant bias from the presenters/reporters is shocking! |
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qays1991
Joined: 31 Jan 2008
Posts: 434
Location: UK
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| Posted: Mon Dec 20, 2010 1:11 pm Post subject: Re: American Attitudes towards Atheism |
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3. Why are so many people offended by the existance of Atheism?
This has a clip to go with it!
Good Without God Bus Campaign
How can this be offensive to anyone!? It is simply stating that some people are Atheists but they are still able to be morally good without a belief in God. I believe this was designed to combat the common question "Where do Atheists get morals if not from [insert holy book]?".
Just a thought. First of all I do understand why they're doing it in that way. To make people feel more comfortable about themselves. I get that.
But I was just wondering. Let's take an example. iI we have a person born from a baby, and turns what.. 9? 10? 11 years of age. Obviously that person knows very little of anything and only learns more through experience. The person is also shaped, as in he becomes himself by influences from other people, especially family? http://www.scribd.com/doc/16039590/Family-Has-Most-Important-Influence-on-Young-Adults
Therefore, for the people that get their good morals, some of those morals that they have learnt, I'm sure there has to be small percentage that they learnt some of it from people that have religions that learnt their morals from a holy book? This might equal to the parents as well if they are both atheist.. that is, some of the morals that they have learnt, must have come from at least some people that follow religions learning from a holy book?
And if you think about it further, if you ask a person like, 'Why don't you just a rob a store?' And the person might reply 'Cuz it's morally wrong!' But if you ask the person, 'Why is it morally wrong?' And the person might say 'I don't know.. it's just morally wrong.'
Having said that, there has to be a reason, and the reason being, he or she must have learnt it from someone that it was morally wrong, be it by influence or by observation from people, and from those people that he have learnt, they must have learnt it from someone as well. What I'm trying to say is there has to be a source of why people know what's morally right or morally good shouldn't there? And what is that source? Where did this all came from? Well... I believe it's the Holy Quran. And Christians will believe it's the Holy Bible, and Hindus will believe it's from the Holy Scriptures.
And if you were wondering.. yes. I am a Muslim  .
Edit: I should add, that if anyone is/was offended by what I had just said, I don't intend to offend anyone. I am merely asking for you to think. That's all.
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Last edited by qays1991 on Mon Dec 20, 2010 1:32 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Pas26
Joined: 04 Oct 2008
Posts: 3664
Location: Québec, Canada
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| Posted: Mon Dec 20, 2010 1:31 pm Post subject: |
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Direct answer to qays:
I highly doubt it. People knew it was wrong to steal before holy books because, well, you lose a possession and become angry, so you agree about not stealing. Laws are there to give morals and common sense (And education) should be able to refrain most people from harming others (because they don't want to be harmed either).
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GesterX
Joined: 24 Dec 2007
Posts: 1242
Location: Birmingham, UK
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| Posted: Mon Dec 20, 2010 1:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Pas26 wrote: | Direct answer to qays:
I highly doubt it. People knew it was wrong to steal before holy books because, well, you lose a possession and become angry, so you agree about not stealing. Laws are there to give morals and common sense (And education) should be able to refrain most people from harming others (because they don't want to be harmed either). |
I cannot agree more.
Moral is learnt through empathy and experience.
When we are a child we do a lot of immoral things on a small scale... Perhaps taking another childs toy or lying to a parent. With very young children, these acts recieve a negative outcome (being told off) and thus the child is discouraged from doing the bad thing. Similarly good behaviour is rewarded and therefore encouraged. As a child grows older through experience a sense of empathy is developed. Through growing and learning as people we form our own sense of morality.
If anything we are moving AWAY from the morality taught in holy books. Sure they have a lot of good lessons in them but they also encourage:
Slavery
Unequal Women Rights
Homophobia
Killing non-believers
As time has gone on we are cherry picking the "good bits" from the holy books to fit in with our modern culture and more educated outlook on cultural issues.
Of course there is no way to know where our original morals came from, however, I would speculate that the Holy Books are more of a written version of what was morally acceptable at the time. Binding the rules to a "God" is simply a means to enforce what was felt as morally right at the time. |
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arvain
Joined: 09 Jul 2007
Posts: 3736
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| Posted: Mon Dec 20, 2010 2:48 pm Post subject: Re: American Attitudes towards Atheism |
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| GesterX wrote: | | Americans in general seem to see religion (or a lack of) as more a part of their identity. From the various media clips, blogs, and articles I have investigated it seems that coming out as an Atheist is almost on-par with coming out as homosexual. I've seen ample stories of people being disowned by family and the community simply for not believing in a God. |
Wow, I knew it already, but everytime I hear about it, I am just grateful !!  Gay + atheist... thank goodness I'm French. Noone really gives a damn about it. Disowning someone for their sexual/religious orientation... Sounds like it's more important than the person himself. Very lame, and sad.
| Quote: | 1. Is America ready for an Atheist President?
From what I have seen I would say NO! |
Same.
| Quote: | | Many of the candidates in the recent council elections seem to strongly incorporate Christian themes into their campaign. ("He goes to Church every Sunday... he MUST be great!!!"). [...] When we compare this to the UK election... well let's just say the majority of people don't care. |
Yeah, I mean, there are way enough proofs that going to church every sunday = best president possible...  (lol sarcasm) And don't get me wrong, I don't say it's bad ; everyone has his own beliefs. Here, religion has nothing doing with politics, but it doesn't make our president any better/worse than another. It's just totally irrelevant to think he'd be worse/better if he was/wasn't going to church since, as you said, state =///= religion !
| Quote: | 3. Why are so many people offended by the existance of Atheism?
This has a clip to go with it!
Good Without God Bus Campaign
How can this be offensive to anyone!? It is simply stating that some people are Atheists but they are still able to be morally good without a belief in God. I believe this was designed to combat the common question "Where do Atheists get morals if not from [insert holy book]?". |
Tssss, good question. It's easy to rely on *insert any holy book* that is unquestionnable (= "it's not me who say that, it's written !!"). And this campaign is offensive for intolerant people. I mean, WTF ! Shouldn't be that hard to understand this basic point : you're free to believe in what you want, as long as you don't try to force it into other people (in that case, as long as you don't say people fail for not believing it too). These anti-campaign people miss a point : it's not saying "baww you shouldn't believe in god, baww bawww !!!" .... it's just saying "it's OK if you don't, you don't HAVE to".
If there was to be such a campaign in France.... well, there wouldn't be any : here, you're not considered as a freak if you're religious/any different, like you seem to be in the US (at least looking at that, cause I won't generalize too much). It's like in the UK I guess : people don't really care, what you believe doesn't determine how much credit you're being given.
| Quote: | 4. WHAT IS WITH FOX NEWS!!?
Many of the clips I have come across have been from Fox News. Now you may as well rename Fox News to Jesus TV!! The amount of general ignorance and blatant bias from the presenters/reporters is shocking! |
I'm just shocked by that too. How about they let people make their own freaking opinions ?!! Be as ignorant as you want when walking down the street, but not on TV !! Not allowing more ads like that in Dallas ? Yeah that's clever... letting people being discriminated cause they're non-believers, makes so much sense. 
To qays : It does not matter where you get your morals from. How would it be better/worse to get it from a holy book or not. When you say "it's just morally wrong" from a holy book, it's not any more/less valid than saying "it's just morally wrong, i don't know why, it's just wrong". In one case you have "i don't know it's just wrong", in the other you have "i don't know, the book says it". Both are equal statements to me, nothing makes one more valid than the other.
But anyway, moral's origins/validity are off point. You're skipping the point of this whole fake-drama : you (in general, not you specifically  ) have to accept that people who don't believe are just normal people too (here religious people aren't regarded any differently !!). And that's the problem of this campaign : some people apparently NEED to be told that !!  And they don't like it either -______- It was already stupid enough that people had (and still have !!) to claim "i'm black but i'm normal and live like you" or "i'm gay but i'm normal and live like you".... now they're getting to the point where they need to say "i'm atheist but i'm normal and i live like you"... WOW !! :MAJOR FACEPALM: Lrn2tolerance !
What next ? "my hair is brown but i'm normal and i live like you" ?? tsss, lame ! Gester, you get a pretty good point there : religious beliefs/lack of seems like a huuuuge part of the identity... And it wouldn't be that bad if it didn't lead to discrimination !! (because if this campaign exists, I guess it's not exactly for no reason  )
EDIT : (ninja, as expected)
| Gester wrote: | | Of course there is no way to know where our original morals came from, however, I would speculate that the Holy Books are more of a written version of what was morally acceptable at the time. Binding the rules to a "God" is simply a means to enforce what was felt as morally right at the time. |
OMG, this !!!
Last edited by arvain on Mon Dec 20, 2010 2:50 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Fugitive
Joined: 20 Aug 2007
Posts: 3035
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| Posted: Mon Dec 20, 2010 2:48 pm Post subject: |
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1. Is America ready for an Atheist President
Hell no. Sure, non-religion is growing, but an atheist will never get elected. We had an open atheist run for mayor in my state, North Carolina, and he was fucking sued and brought to court to try to stop him from running because of this article “any person who shall deny the being of Almighty God” the right to hold public office.
For what it's worth, I'm pretty sure Obama is a closet Atheist.
2. Will America get more or less religious over the years?
There's a CLEAR pattern toward non-religiousness. That said, I'm glad you brought up the divide. Because while I definitely see sooooooo much less religion among people my age, many are very religious and it is becoming more of an issue in this nation. I believe America has raised to 15% Atheist/Agnostic, and only 4/10 believe in strict creationism now (still far too high IMO).
3. Why are so many people offended by the existence of Atheism?
1) They don't understand it. (see qays post)
2) It's different.
4. WHAT IS WITH FOX NEWS!!?
just... just ignore it. CNN, ABC and NBC aren't much better.
@qays - http://www.samharris.org/site/full_text/the-moral-landscape/
Give that a read. It's about how science can determine morals.
@Gester - original morals came from the survival of the human race. If everyone was allowed to go around killing everyone, the species would have died out long ago. Morals are essentially and evolutionary tool. Give that book a read too.
If someone actually got their morals from the Bible, I'd be terrified of that person. I'm serious. They'd have to stone wedded non-virgins, and slaughter other atheists. They couldn't eat shellfish, get tattoos, or put up Christmas trees. They'd have to impose their beliefs and customs on everyone else too (owait). Gester covered that pretty well, I guess. |
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arvain
Joined: 09 Jul 2007
Posts: 3736
Location: 43' 14'' 03''' N, 0' 00'' 09''' E
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| Posted: Mon Dec 20, 2010 2:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Fugitive wrote: | | We had an open atheist run for mayor in my state, North Carolina, and he was fucking sued and brought to court to try to stop him from running because of this article “any person who shall deny the being of Almighty God” the right to hold public office. |
say wut ?!! holy crap !!
| Quote: | | For what it's worth, I'm pretty sure Obama is a closet Atheist. |
haha, inb4 more drama if that's true xD!!
Also, notice how some religious people are all like "DRAMA DRAMA OMG DRAMA" because "it's baaaaaad" and all that.... but they don't think about the reason behind this campaign (being regarded and considered differently at best, being discriminated (in all sorts of ways) at worst)... yeah right, of course. |
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Fugitive
Joined: 20 Aug 2007
Posts: 3035
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| Posted: Mon Dec 20, 2010 3:11 pm Post subject: |
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| arvain wrote: | | Quote: | | For what it's worth, I'm pretty sure Obama is a closet Atheist. |
haha, inb4 more drama if that's true xD!! |
I'm not sure we'll ever know for sure, and maybe I'm just projecting what I want onto him, but there is sufficient evidence. His father is a public atheist. He's the only president that has included atheists and agnostics in speeches (unlike Mr. H Bush who said atheists shouldn't be citizens). He also has been the only president to meet with atheist activist groups (which he's caught a lot of shit for from religious people lol). It would not surprise me one bit if the whole Christian thing was a facade so he could get elected. In fact, I'm sure more politicians are atheists. When you look at a group of people that educated, there tend to be a high percentage of non-religious ones, because religion is inversely correlated with education. So the fact that you can take hundreds and thousands of highly educated senators, congressmen, mayors, governors, judges, and have them all be Christian is not a coincidence. |
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sorasgoof
Joined: 09 Mar 2008
Posts: 2314
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| Posted: Mon Dec 20, 2010 3:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Fugitive wrote: | | because religion is inversely correlated with education. So the fact that you can take hundreds and thousands of highly educated senators, congressmen, mayors, governors, judges, and have them all be Christian is not a coincidence. |
Correlation, not causation, man.
I've wanted to say that for a long time. 
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Eastwinn 
Joined: 12 Jul 2007
Posts: 2853
Location: Anne Arundel County, Maryland
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| Posted: Mon Dec 20, 2010 3:44 pm Post subject: |
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| sorasgoof wrote: | | Correlation, not causation, man. |
He didn't imply causation, he asserted that the correlation should be consistent in politicians as well, but it's not. So then he speculates that this means that there are closet atheists in office. It could also mean that atheists don't run altogether, or somehow all managed to not get elected.
About Fox news, that's a can of worms. It's safe to say that news networks in America choose to get viewers by acting like cocks. That's not to say that rational arguments are never made on news networks; they're just few and far between. Take it all with heaps of salt.
If you look at teenagers in America, you'll find many more atheists (source needed). This, in my interpretation, could mean one of three things. That atheism is a naive belief, that teenagers are more willing to "come out," or that the younger generation is truly more atheist than the older generation. The latter is very tempting; it would suggest a more atheist future America. That's alarming or relieving, depending on where you're coming from. But the middle option is just as likely, IMO.
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iDoom
Joined: 27 Dec 2007
Posts: 647
Location: South Carolina
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| Posted: Mon Dec 20, 2010 3:55 pm Post subject: Re: American Attitudes towards Atheism |
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| GesterX wrote: |
1. Is America ready for an Atheist President?
From what I have seen I would say NO! Many of the candidates in the recent council elections seem to strongly incorporate Christian themes into their campaign. ("He goes to Church every Sunday... he MUST be great!!!"). This is extremely surprising, since as far as I am aware, your founding fathers created the country in a way that Church and State were seperated. Yet it seems that religion will always play a big part in elections in America. When we compare this to the UK election... well let's just say the majority of people don't care. |
See that sentence I underlined? It's complete bullcrap. The term "separation of church and state" was coined in a private letter from Thomas Jefferson, and has since been taken way out of context. The original meaning of the phrase (Jefferson defined it in his letter) is that the government would not force people to be a certain religion like other countries did at that time, not that the government and religion would have to be separate. The founding fathers all encouraged belief in God to be present in government. Seriously, read some of their speeches.
| GesterX wrote: | | 3. Why are so many people offended by the existance of Atheism? |
I'm not offended by the existance of atheism. I'm offended by the thought that you are an idiot if you believe in religion. (If you don't think this mindset actually exists, go read some comments on cracked.com on any article that even mentions God.)
| GesterX wrote: | 4. WHAT IS WITH FOX NEWS!!?
Many of the clips I have come across have been from Fox News. Now you may as well rename Fox News to Jesus TV!! The amount of general ignorance and blatant bias from the presenters/reporters is shocking! |
Yeah, Fox is really biased. Honestly, it's not much worse than other TV stations. However, I might be talking about something I don't know about there, since I barely watch the news, and my mom loves Fox.
Anyways, here's an article I was thinking about posting a topic about a few days ago, but I'll just post it here. It's slightly biased, but I thought it was a great article. I believe that it addresses the morals questions also.
| Fugitive wrote: | | If someone actually got their morals from the Bible, I'd be terrified of that person. I'm serious. They'd have to stone wedded non-virgins, and slaughter other atheists. They couldn't eat shellfish, get tattoos, or put up Christmas trees. They'd have to impose their beliefs and customs on everyone else too (owait). Gester covered that pretty well, I guess. |
Someone's never read the new testament. ^^
There's the account where Jesus stops people from stoning an adulteress, the accounts where Jesus condemns murder of any kind, and the account where God comes in a vision to Peter and tells him the food taboos have been lifted. I also don't remember anything about tattoos or Christmas trees in the bible. Trust me, I've read it. =P If you need verse references, I can provide them with a little searching.
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louster200 
Joined: 10 Dec 2007
Posts: 1581
Location: YYZ, Indiana
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| Posted: Mon Dec 20, 2010 4:03 pm Post subject: |
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I'm fine with people being Athesiests, it's just when they have to debate and try to prove you wrong when there really isn't a definitive answer about what religion is right or wrong.
Maybe I just hate debating over something that has no answer. Or just debating. \O.o/
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GesterX
Joined: 24 Dec 2007
Posts: 1242
Location: Birmingham, UK
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| Posted: Mon Dec 20, 2010 4:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Fugitive wrote: |
@Gester - original morals came from the survival of the human race. If everyone was allowed to go around killing everyone, the species would have died out long ago. Morals are essentially and evolutionary tool. Give that book a read too.
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I do like Sam Harris. He's a great clear speaker and he seems to be less arrogant than Christopher Hitchens and more likeable than Dawkins.
Arvain, luckily France is even more Atheist than Britain! Although one thing I do not agree with is the ban on the Women's Head Scarves! I think the ban (and attention to the issue) will only increase Xenophobia! As for it being a way to "free" women... well now any woman who WAS being forced to wear it by their husband probably won't be allowed out of the house!
I'm glad to see that your personal experiences match my research. I was scared I had maybe got the wrong idea.
I'm going to go ahead and insert a new topic here:
The War on Christmas
...as the American media have dubbed it.
Now for me this is an odd one. As mentioned before, the UK is a lot less religious than the USA yet over here everyone is happy to call December 25th and the surrounding weeks "Christmas". Now I am an Atheist yet I still celebrate Christmas as a time to be with family and give presents. And no I don't mind calling it "Christmas" despite being an Athiest, and Jesus not actually being born in Winter, and Christianity hijaking the pagan winter solstace celebration 1500 years ago.
However, in America, there seems to be this big war semantic issue surrounding the word "Christmas". Because Christianity has such a majority in America it is felt by the non-believing community that Christianity act as if they "own" Christmas.
As I have mentioned, in the UK nobody cares, but in the US this big divide between religious/non-religious seems to have sparked this dispute over using the word "Christmas" instead of "Holiday Season".
I would be interested to hear any views/experiences surrounding this as well as the previous issues. |
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Fugitive
Joined: 20 Aug 2007
Posts: 3035
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| Posted: Mon Dec 20, 2010 4:28 pm Post subject: Re: American Attitudes towards Atheism |
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| iDoom wrote: | | See that sentence I underlined? It's complete bullcrap. The term "separation of church and state" was coined in a private letter from Thomas Jefferson, and has since been taken way out of context. The original meaning of the phrase (Jefferson defined it in his letter) is that the government would not force people to be a certain religion like other countries did at that time, not that the government and religion would have to be separate. The founding fathers all encouraged belief in God to be present in government. Seriously, read some of their speeches. |
The First Amendment to the Constitution states that "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof. Separation of Church and State bro.
Also, at least half of the founding fathers were secularists, Thomas Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin being a notable two. I'm not going to tell you they weren't Christians, because then I would be lying, but to say they (at least all of them) encouraged belief in God is an outright fabrication. Seriously, read some of their writings.
| iDoom wrote: | Someone's never read the new testament. ^^
There's the account where Jesus stops people from stoning an adulteress, the accounts where Jesus condemns murder of any kind, and the account where God comes in a vision to Peter and tells him the food taboos have been lifted. I also don't remember anything about tattoos or Christmas trees in the bible. Trust me, I've read it. =P If you need verse references, I can provide them with a little searching. |
Someone's wrong about me and should stop making assumptions. ^^
I've read the Bible cover to cover. Granted, quite a few years ago now, but I still have knowledge of it. I maintain that I would be terrified of anyone who got their morals from it. We've now even pointed out a blatant contradiction already. Can we or can we not eat Shellfish? God says no in Leviticus, then tells Peter yes. That's just confusing when you're trying to take your morals. Seems like the omnipotent being should have had his mind made up and foreseen the westernization of morals. So yeah, still scared of anyone who truly gets their morals from this. Read up on the tattoos and trees, it's in there. Trust me, I've read it. =P I've helped you find the verses for reference:
“Do not cut your bodies for the dead or put tattoo marks on yourselves. I am the LORD” (Leviticus 19:28)
"Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them. 3* For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe. 4* They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not. 5 They are upright as the palm tree, but speak not: they must needs be borne, because they cannot go. Be not afraid of them; for they cannot do evil, neither also is it in them to do good." (Jeremiah 10:2)
As for Fox News, I don't really feel like getting into that. It's definitely the most biased, but all mainstream media networks are bad and/or biased, so I hate to just single out Fox News. I do understand why it's singled out the most though, it does present the most blatant lies to back their opinions of the others. |
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arvain
Joined: 09 Jul 2007
Posts: 3736
Location: 43' 14'' 03''' N, 0' 00'' 09''' E
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| Posted: Mon Dec 20, 2010 5:16 pm Post subject: |
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| iDoom wrote: | | I'm offended by the thought that you are an idiot if you believe in religion. |
Well, noone said that here. And apparently, you missed what I said : it's not saying "baww you shouldn't believe in god, baww bawww !!!" .... it's just saying "it's OK if you don't, you don't HAVE to".
and you missed something else :
| iDoom wrote: | | If you need verse references, I can provide them with a little searching. |
| Gester wrote: | | This thread is NOT for debating the existance of God. |
| arvain wrote: | | you're free to believe in what you want, as long as you don't try to force it into other people |
kthxbai !!
| Fugitive wrote: | | When you look at a group of people that educated, there tend to be a high percentage of non-religious ones, because religion is inversely correlated with education. |
Yep, I remember hearing that back in university. I had some sociology, and even in statistic class we talked about that, and that was SO obvious
| Gester wrote: | | Arvain, luckily France is even more Atheist than Britain! Although one thing I do not agree with is the ban on the Women's Head Scarves! I think the ban (and attention to the issue) will only increase Xenophobia! As for it being a way to "free" women... well now any woman who WAS being forced to wear it by their husband probably won't be allowed out of the house! |
True, unfortunately  This whole issue is annoying me SO much. Most people agreeing with that, they say "if i have to remove my hat inside, they'll remove their scarves". Personally, I don't mind a scarf on your head, at worst it'll make you look ugly, when you probably have nice hair =P But if you're not allowed to carry a gigantic-ass cross in your arms all day, then you can't hide behind a black wall of clothes (not to mention all the practical implications). Sadly, you're right : xenophobia is also hiding behind that excuse of practical implications. People are just paranoid here about that
| Gester wrote: | | I'm glad to see that your personal experiences match my research. I was scared I had maybe got the wrong idea. |
haha yeah, here when people don't like you, it's almost never because of religion. It's because they're dumbasses and dumbassery transcends the nations ! Doesn't make it less painful when you get hate, but at least you can't almost ever blame religion (they're exceptions, but nothing close to what can happen in the US).
About the Christmas semantic issues : here christmas = noël So there's no problem with jesus christ being everywhere... BUT it still is called sometimes "nativité" ... birth... WHOSE birth.... yeah He's still there, but "Noël" isn't as directly linked as "Christmas" xD
Oh and about the news on tv.... man, the main channel here is sometimes SO biased too !! State =/= church, but state = tv Thank goodness though, most people are not too dumb and they can see how much this channel is influenced by the government.
But anyway I like gester's topic, hopefully it won't turn into a debate about different interpretations of... holy books. |
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