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Erimgard
Joined: 13 Feb 2008
Posts: 442
Location: Tennessee
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 Posted: Sat Mar 14, 2009 5:49 am Post subject: |
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| GrindingMystic wrote: | ---RANT ALERT---
I'm sorry to anybody who likes the FF and thinks it's a good way to play but they are to easy to cheat on. Here is a fact:
a person once got 10,000x10 on a FF (100,000) he also had a 4x multiplyer (400,000) he also had star power (800,000) he also had a 4x band multiplier (3,200,000) there were 4 FF sections in the song (12,800,000).
I'm sorry but the score from FF in comparison to normal singing is ridiculously high (like 1:100) and I'm hoping in the game after Guitar Hero: Metallica, Activision either tone down the points or delete it ENTIRELY from the game. This system has totally ruined the leaderboards (I FC'd a song and got 5026th on the leaderboards)
Also you putting up the exact notes required is just helping these cheaters (not blaming you).
---RANT ALERT--- |
I suppose you disagree with posting optimal sp paths for other instruments as well? I'm not saying the feature is balanced, but this is a game about getting the highest score. What's wrong with doing everything possible under the game engine to do that?
You need to look up the proper definition of the word 'cheat' and realize your misuse of it. |
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Doremi
Joined: 19 Nov 2008
Posts: 61
Location: Rome
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| Posted: Sat Mar 14, 2009 6:05 pm Post subject: |
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I think GrindingMystic meant that it's very easy to cheat using a keyboard for example in order to perform those notes in a FF.
This is cheating, using anything that comes from a device that does not belong to the game, as a keyboard to do what you should do with your voice, is obviously cheating.
Even in sport competitions you must get the highest score possible, but this doesn't allow you to use anything possible (like not allowed means) to achieve it.
Optimal SP have nothing to do with this, they are a good way to optimize your scores in a clever way, using the game's features.
The game engine doesn't provide keyboards. And it's obvious that people use them, if you see certain scores.
I also agree with him that this system has totally ruined the leaderboards, and I am with him/her in hoping that they tone down the points or delete FFs entirely from the game. |
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Erimgard
Joined: 13 Feb 2008
Posts: 442
Location: Tennessee
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| Posted: Sun Mar 15, 2009 1:49 am Post subject: |
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| Doremi wrote: | I think GrindingMystic meant that it's very easy to cheat using a keyboard for example in order to perform those notes in a FF.
This is cheating, using anything that comes from a device that does not belong to the game, as a keyboard to do what you should do with your voice, is obviously cheating.
Even in sport competitions you must get the highest score possible, but this doesn't allow you to use anything possible (like not allowed means) to achieve it.
Optimal SP have nothing to do with this, they are a good way to optimize your scores in a clever way, using the game's features.
The game engine doesn't provide keyboards. And it's obvious that people use them, if you see certain scores.
I also agree with him that this system has totally ruined the leaderboards, and I am with him/her in hoping that they tone down the points or delete FFs entirely from the game. |
Which scores? |
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SneakingZonia
Joined: 05 Jun 2008
Posts: 24
Location: Oslo
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| Posted: Sun Mar 15, 2009 2:34 pm Post subject: which scores |
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| I'm wondering which scores as well.. |
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Doremi
Joined: 19 Nov 2008
Posts: 61
Location: Rome
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| Posted: Mon Mar 16, 2009 10:26 am Post subject: |
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| Erimgard wrote: | | Which scores? |
I'll remind you that what I'm saying is based on facts, just read here:
http://www.xbox360achievements.org/forum/showthread.php?t=102722
Someone even posted the link for an online keyboard in this board, just scroll down and you'll find it.
I simply think that without FFs the competition on vocals would be based on a much fairer level for everyone.
I also know that certain topics are a taboo on the GH site...people that tried to point out this aspect have got scornful replies.
I know that there are people that get high scores out of their own effort, and since she replied here, I can say that SneakingZonia is one of them for I have seen her get where she is now with patience, practice and effort.
MOF I also (when I used to compete in medium tourneys), used all my energy and skills to win, so I'm not talking about everyone that participates.
But what some may achieve with a lot of effort for hours trying to get the right combination of sounds that makes a FF gain points, others (smarter? ) may achieve that same (or even better) result just using a keyboard in a few minutes...and these results may not be related to how well they did as to percentage of words hit, but simply related to FFs.
This is not playing a game on even grounds IMO.
And this happens because the vocals system is flawed, due to the excessive weight that FFs have in the global score for each song.
I think they should fix this, reducing the points for FFs or as GrindingMystic wrote, delete them entirely.
In RB only the best get expert songs with high scores, being there no FFS, in GH the best also may get them, but with them you will surely find some that wouldn't be able to get even a 92% on a given song.
And you know what? I'd like to be able to write paths for vocals in GH too, but this is impossible, and guess why?
Vocals are the only GHWT part that cannot have paths for songs (except for the ones with no FFs)...this alone should make you wonder that there is something wrong. |
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squall1729
Joined: 11 Jul 2007
Posts: 157
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| Posted: Mon Mar 16, 2009 11:51 am Post subject: |
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| Doremi wrote: | | I'll remind you that what I'm saying is based on facts, just read here |
I think people were confused because it seemed you were implying that some of the top scores for songs were submitted through people who were using a keyboard (is this what you meant?). If it's just to get an achievement, then I believe many people do cheat freely for these, even on the guitar side of things. Cheating on the top end of the leaderboards is another matter entirely.
| Doremi wrote: | | And this happens because the vocals system is flawed, due to the excessive weight that FFs have in the global score for each song. |
I'm not sure I quite get you here - even if FFs were worth less, wouldn't people playing keyboards still easily score better than the average singer? And for the best singers, it's possible to score very well in FFs, making the keyboard advantage not too great.
| Doremi wrote: | | And you know what? I'd like to be able to write paths for vocals in GH too, but this is impossible, and guess why? |
I'm not sure, why? I don't see how FFs change much with pathing - apart from a few exceptions, the maximum score in FFs is possible to calculate (the points and multiplier are both a function of the duration), and even if not, you can still get a good idea just by placing star power to start just before the end of a FF phrase.
To be honest, the whole yellow/green flash thing is the thing that makes pathing interesting in vocals - as unlike the other instruments, you can keep your streak but get sub-optimal star power, which *might* be useful in getting more points (although unlikely), but also means that you have to adjust your path mid-song if you get a yellow section rather than a green one.
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Doremi
Joined: 19 Nov 2008
Posts: 61
Location: Rome
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| Posted: Mon Mar 16, 2009 1:25 pm Post subject: |
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| squall1729 wrote: | | I think people were confused because it seemed you were implying that some of the top scores for songs were submitted through people who were using a keyboard (is this what you meant?). If it's just to get an achievement, then I believe many people do cheat freely for these, even on the guitar side of things. Cheating on the top end of the leaderboards is another matter entirely. |
I can't say that anyone in particular uses keyboards (cheats) because I have no idea about who does, but I do know for sure that some players use keyboards, not only have I read threads that mention this in the GH site, but even in other posts (here too, if I recall well?) I have read that there's nothing wrong with this, since it's all about getting the maximum score, right?
Also, if people do cheat to get an achievement, how can you be sure that these same people will not use it in the tournaments? Wouldn't it be a tough temptation to resist to? 
I have also seen some absurd scores during tourneys all based on FFs, and not on percentage of words hit, so I might even think that since this keyboard usage is so popular, someone may be using it, is this such a farfetched thought I have?
| squall1729 wrote: | | Doremi wrote: | | And this happens because the vocals system is flawed, due to the excessive weight that FFs have in the global score for each song. |
I'm not sure I quite get you here - even if FFs were worth less, wouldn't people playing keyboards still easily score better than the average singer? And for the best singers, it's possible to score very well in FFs, making the keyboard advantage not too great |
No, if FFs were only given like a few thousand points, it wouldn't be possible for a person that gets 90% to have a higher score than a person who gets 98% on a song even if the former used FFS and the latter did not...if FFs were granted fewer points, the one getting a high percentage (98%) would get a better overall score using more SP, gained by having all green flashes (meaning he's more skilled in pitch etc).
While as it is now, with FFs worth more than 100,000 points, the one that gets 90 % can win even if the other gets a 99% but not a good enough FF score.
Even without using a cheat anyone can score higher if he's good on finding out the right FFs notes, but of course using a keyboard the game gets totally unfair for who does not.
| squall1729 wrote: | | Doremi wrote: | | And you know what? I'd like to be able to write paths for vocals in GH too, but this is impossible, and guess why? |
I'm not sure, why? I don't see how FFs change much with pathing - apart from a few exceptions, the maximum score in FFs is possible to calculate (the points and multiplier are both a function of the duration), and even if not, you can still get a good idea just by placing star power to start just before the end of a FF phrase |
How can you technically do that? FFs are unpredictable, I've heard of people getting up to 10 X multipliers, so how is it possible to calculate a max score if we don't even know how much you can get as a multiplier?
You will never get a total score for a given song, since the FF variable makes it not a standard.
So, I might get 300,000 for a song with a 7 X multiplier, someone else might get 380, 000 because he got a 9 X multiplier...I for one once got a 9 X using my voice once on Vicarious, I could never replicate again since it was not a keyboard sound, but a weird assmble of sounds made by my own voice...certainly not possible to use for a path.
| squall1729 wrote: | | To be honest, the whole yellow/green flash thing is the thing that makes pathing interesting in vocals - as unlike the other instruments, you can keep your streak but get sub-optimal star power, which *might* be useful in getting more points (although unlikely), but also means that you have to adjust your path mid-song if you get a yellow section rather than a green one. |
I agree completely here. And that's why I think this game could be much more interesting without those FFs, it's already interesting and fun as it is, you don't need that unpredictable boost in scores to screw everything up.
I have lost the fun in GH vocals thanks to FFs, too time consuming for something that has little to do with skills, in the last tourney I did in the GH site I spent a whole day trying to get a higher score on the FFs, I had optimal scores on the words, but to win I just had to spend hours and hours trying to get the FFs scores higher.
I did win in the end...but I struggled so much on something that had absolutely nothing to do with vocal skills or the song itself, that it lost all the fun.
Thus I kind of lost heart in competition on vocals, I now have fun in band play.
Btw, thanks for the feedback squall1729, I'm happy to be able to discuss about this here, since my attempts in other contexts were totally ignored. |
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think13
Joined: 22 May 2008
Posts: 107
Location: Minnesota
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| Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2009 5:27 am Post subject: |
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I thought I'd reply about the pathing issue.
There is no need to know the maximum amount of freeform points in order to create an optimal SP path for the vast majority of songs. Since freeforms give so many points, we can assume that to maximize total points, star power should be used on freeforms wherever possible. Of course, you won't know the theoretical maximum score, but knowing that isn't valuable anyway, because it is impossible to get optimal scores on vocals.
Of course we need charts to create paths...
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I think that the freeform system is very flawed. There is absolutely no reason to have them, since they don't fulfill their main purpose: giving better singers an advantage. They just reward people who know the tricks and gimmicks of the game, which isn't really fun for anyone.
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In any case, this forum is very valuable. It helps people find the scales they need, so they can get past the frustration of freeforms and back to the actual vocals in the song.
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SneakingZonia
Joined: 05 Jun 2008
Posts: 24
Location: Oslo
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| Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2009 9:37 am Post subject: |
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I understand your point of view Doremi, and I cannot say that I totally disagree, but cheating will always be a problem in this game. If someone wants to cheat, then let them. I saw the keyboard thread regarding the achievment for Beat it, that was fully possible to get on medium without any help of a keyboard. I did that, once I could control those beat it-phrases.. LOL If someone have used instruments to get on top of the leaderboards, I think that's their problem. But I think it's possible to get there without cheating, even if it takes more time and effort to do so.
I'm sorry that you don't play in the gh tourneys any more Feel free to challenge me on vocals if you want to. It is possible to choose songs and then to agree per message that we would sing those instead of play da gitar.. lol
As for charting, I have made a list with an overview of where the FF, pauses etc are for each song (almost ready). Not quite charting, but mapping maybe?? That helps a lot regarding use of sp. |
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Doremi
Joined: 19 Nov 2008
Posts: 61
Location: Rome
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| Posted: Thu Mar 19, 2009 3:44 pm Post subject: Re: GHWT On-disc FreeForms Thread |
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I'll be happy to do do a little challenge with you, SneakingZonia, my problem is only finding the time, that applies to tourneys too, for my job and family keep me very busy.
But as soon as I have some free days, I'll send you a challenge, that might be quite soon too! 
I also agree that it's perfectly possible to get the Beat It achievement with one's own voice, I often get 7X multipliers using just my voice. I must still try that one, I'm curious to see if I can do it.
I do some mapping too when I practice the songs, to remind me where the FFs are and when it's better to activate, but surely it's a bit empirical, not the same as paths, where you know what score you will get if you do it well.
Still, I agree, it helps.
| bh0ukk wrote: | | Arguing about FFs was not the purpose of this thread..... |
I don't think I was arguing but simply discussing a problem that does exist. I think this could be a constructive discussion, and I'm sorry you deleted your note sequences.
This was simply an addition to the freestyle discussion, maybe a little digression but not actually off topic since that's what the thread dealt with, but if you think I hijacked I apologize, and please feel free to start another one where we might just post the sequences or anything that might help boost the multiplier, with no related discussion. |
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SneakingZonia
Joined: 05 Jun 2008
Posts: 24
Location: Oslo
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| Posted: Thu Mar 19, 2009 4:21 pm Post subject: |
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| bh0ukk, I'm sorry you deleted this. Any chance that you would post those again? |
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think13
Joined: 22 May 2008
Posts: 107
Location: Minnesota
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| Posted: Fri Mar 20, 2009 4:55 am Post subject: |
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| SneakingZonia wrote: | | bh0ukk, I'm sorry you deleted this. Any chance that you would post those again? |
I agree. Please don't let your hard work go to waste.
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bh0ukk
Joined: 10 Jun 2006
Posts: 20
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| Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 5:42 pm Post subject: |
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OK, time for round 2.
But please try to contribute if you can and start another thread if you want to talk about FFs.
Oh, and i'm almost sure 10,000x10 on a single FF is impossible.
I'd really like to see a video.... |
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SneakingZonia
Joined: 05 Jun 2008
Posts: 24
Location: Oslo
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| Posted: Tue Mar 24, 2009 8:15 pm Post subject: |
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You posted them again: Great, thank you so much. It will be interesting to see how this works  |
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BoneDeath
Joined: 26 Dec 2007
Posts: 250
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Fri Mar 27, 2009 9:30 am Post subject: |
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I know Pull Me Under and maybe Trapped Under Ice are in E Minor (E F# G A B C# D I think it is). Try looking at a guitar tab of the song and find what pitch the lowest note is; it usually is the root note of the scale.
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