ScoreHero
Home | Forum | Wiki
Inbox [ Login ]Inbox [ Login ]
SearchSearch MemberlistMemberlist
ProfileProfile Log inLog in
Continuing the Freeform Argument....Cheating/What Not
Goto page 1, 2, 3  Next
 
Post new topic   This topic is locked: you cannot edit posts or make replies.    ScoreHero Forum Index -> Technique, Style, and Gameplay -> Vocals
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
matt1592  





Joined: 21 Jul 2008
Posts: 51

PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2009 3:19 am    Post subject: Continuing the Freeform Argument....Cheating/What Not Reply with quote

LOCK IT

Last edited by matt1592 on Wed Apr 15, 2009 5:45 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
NavyCherub  





Joined: 28 May 2008
Posts: 3396

PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2009 5:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cheating by Scorehero standards would be not using your voice. I think that's what you're asking, long winded or not.

Also, to answer the "flawed systems" etc. thing, both systems have their ups and downs. Just gotta pick your poison. I happen to prefer the system that at least rewards you for singing as correctly as possible when it counts, and where I can have fun and still FC the song.

Now that you mention it, I haven't played any Metallica in awhile. Guess I sorta lost interest when I realized it would cost me about eighteen more bucks if I wanted to be competitive.
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message XBL Gamertag: Navy Cherub
matt1592  





Joined: 21 Jul 2008
Posts: 51

PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2009 1:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thats good to hear because obviously I'm not the biggest score hero kinda person- I don't use anything but my voice in a song and I get extremely mad when someone accuses me or anyone else on top of the leaderboards because I personally know them all and they are really good singers regardless of how well they do the freeforms. I know all their methods- and to scorehero standards they don't cheat.

- But @ Navy Cherub it really does suck for the people that dont have Death Magnetic. I got it on sale a while back for 1000 ms points and I thought THAT was still a lot. But I still think you can have fun in the Metallica engine though- I just put up a video of me getting the first Armed and Ready FC in falsetto. Just something I'm trying to show in my videos.


Last edited by matt1592 on Mon Apr 13, 2009 4:51 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
matt1592  





Joined: 21 Jul 2008
Posts: 51

PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2009 2:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nevermind about the Armed And Ready the file got completely destroyed. I'm gonna try and fix it and put it up tonight
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Megaman703  





Joined: 29 Jul 2006
Posts: 91

PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2009 11:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank god somebody else came out and said this. I've been saying from day one that GH's system is better. In RB, most of the top vocals will play a song like 5 times tops, because they FC it so easily. Where's the fun in that? I've played GH vox songs countless times because I know I can squeeze out more points, I know i can do better.

Another thing that really bugs me were people saying GH:WT's system was "broken" and GH:M's system is "fixed". GH:M did nothing but change the measure in which percentages are scored. If you seriously think that GH:WT was broken just because you can't get 100%, maybe you need to rethink why you're playing this game.

As far as freeforms are concerned, they need to go. It is impossible and unintuitive for people to hit those without prior knowledge of which notes correspond to freeforms. Even looking at the topic here, to me, somebody with no musical training, those notes mean nothing. I understand the problem of the vocalist needing something to do during guitar solos, but freeforms are creating a false representation of who is doing well on a song.

My suggestion is this:

+90% - increase multiplier, award star power
80-90% - drop multiplier by one, award small star power
<80% - drop multiplier to x1.
Either remove freeforms entirely, or cap them with a point limit and remove the freeform multiplier.

The current GH:M system for keeping multiplier is too harsh in my opinion, dropping multiplier to x1 even on an 89% phrase. This way, singing average on a phrase still impacts your score, but not so much that it ruins your run.

As far as cheating is concerned, using anything other than your voice is cheating. With other people, you have to take accusations in stride, nearly 50% of all guitar fc runs on youtube are accused of being a bot at some point (even videos of proven players). Just ignore them.
Back to top
View user's profile Wiki User Page Send private message
matt1592  





Joined: 21 Jul 2008
Posts: 51

PostPosted: Tue Apr 14, 2009 2:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you for posting a positive reply. A lot of people would rather jump on the "I'm gonna complain about this and play Rock Band" band wagon rather than spend a few minutes and try to figure out the freeforms. Once you get into a system, it really isn't all the difficult. I guarantee that it'll take you more time to look up a star power path and activate right on Rock Band than it will to figure out the correct way to utilize the freeforms on each song on GH. There's already a post that shows you the proper notes. Once you know them all you need to do is memorize what each note sounds like in your head and if your and idiot and you can't memorize the pitch of a note go to an online keyboard to assist you. Just don't sit there with the mic right on the speaker of the keyboard.

As for GH:M.... its system is way to unforgiving. Navy Cherub said a system that is harder than Rock Band and easier than GH:M would be great. I completely agree. That system was GHWT. The only problem was that you couldn't 100% songs. You could still FC them though.

I don't think that jumping out and defending GH vocals is the most popular thing to do here on scorehero. But if I'm gonna do something and be #1 I'm not gonna sit back and watch people tear it apart. EX- http://www.scorehero.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=89948. I know it's not a perfect system but I think someone needs to defend it.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
matt1592  





Joined: 21 Jul 2008
Posts: 51

PostPosted: Tue Apr 14, 2009 2:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I've played GH vox songs countless times because I know I can squeeze out more points, I know i can do better.


I love that you said that. You can always do a freeform better. In Rock Band you can only activate so late and its not going to be as late as BillTVShow. I really hate to bring up his name so much because I have a great deal of respect for him. But I really think that he is the "marker" of how late you can activate. There's a reason that one person doesn't dominate the WT leaderboards. I only have 2 first places and both of the freeforms those songs count for very little points.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
GuitarHailz  





Joined: 11 Jun 2007
Posts: 4910
Location: Austin, Texas

PostPosted: Tue Apr 14, 2009 2:46 am    Post subject: Re: Continuing the Freeform Argument....Cheating/What Not Reply with quote

matt1592 wrote:
ANYONE CAN GO AND GET A KEYBOARD (OR ANYTHING ELSE THEY NEED) AND DO THE FREEFORMS RIGHT AND GET #1. NO ONE HAS THE ABILLITY TO ACTIVATE LATER THAN BILLTVSHOW. Think about it.


You seem to think that everything about being #1 is only star power and squeezing. Sure, that's a huge part of it over on the RB side of things, but GH vocals is still young, and people are still figuring out how to play it and path it and what not. NOT everyone can get a keyboard and learn the freestyles and get #1. Even if I got a x12 out of every freestyle that wouldn't do shit if I couldn't hit any phrases and have a combo or star power going into it. The people at the top of GHM (for the most part) are there because they're damn good at what they do, not because they destroyed all the freestyles (Which is my gripe with World Tour and the abundance of freestyles + easily kept combo).

Rock Band feels much too forgiving. I know I have FC's in that game that I shouldn't have. But that's cool, I have fun playing it and I can say all the lyrics and such. However, the "easy"-ness (by top players standards) of RB/RB2 vocals means the RB side of SH is becoming elitist in a way were a FGFC is required to be considered a "good" vocalist. I think this is utter crap... you all know as well as I that Tangled Up in Blue or something like that would destroy us if it was in GHWT/GHM, so judging vocal skill by FC count alone isn't really fair (random rant, not geared towards you).

I very much enjoy playing Rock Band and I understand your frustration about squeezing and BillTVShow and such, but back in the days of RB1 I grinded many of the songs and got to 9th place on SH for that game. Sure, there was something like 10K tops between me and first, but I worked on the squeezing and consider it a good skill (not that it makes me a better singer, but learning to squeeze is something that guitarists have had to do since the beginning of SH, so why should we be exempt?)

With all due respect, ESPECIALLY when vocals is being concerned, I consider "#1" to be very hard to define. Certainly far as the game is concerned you're #1, but vocals is such a different animal from all the other instruments. There are people who may not be able to FC many songs in RB or GH but may still be great singers. Its just hard to determine who is "better" than one another, since its such a flawed system (not at the fault of Neversoft or Harmonix, mind you). Because of the subjective nature of vocals, I really doubt they will ever be able to make a vox system that will make everyone happy.

That being said, I do wish that freeforms were cut entirely and it was still all about pathing and hitting the phrases, plain and simple. I'd like it to have GH:M's strictness: able to FC, but still hard to keep a combo. It feels much more rewarding to get an FC in this game. If freeforms were cut but getting an FC was still just as hard, it would feel like a much harder version of Rock Band. It wouldn't necessarily be a squeeze fest, since the songs are so damn hard to FC even if you know them.

My 2 cents anyway.
_________________

1KJ08mq.jpg
Back to top
View user's profile Wiki User Page Send private message Send e-mail XBL Gamertag: PMS Hailz PSN Name: Hailey_Ivy
toymachine  





Joined: 30 Oct 2006
Posts: 9629
Location: Toronto

PostPosted: Tue Apr 14, 2009 3:26 am    Post subject: Re: Continuing the Freeform Argument....Cheating/What Not Reply with quote

GuitarHailz wrote:

That being said, I do wish that freeforms were cut entirely and it was still all about pathing and hitting the phrases, plain and simple. I'd like it to have GH:M's strictness: able to FC, but still hard to keep a combo. It feels much more rewarding to get an FC in this game. If freeforms were cut but getting an FC was still just as hard, it would feel like a much harder version of Rock Band. It wouldn't necessarily be a squeeze fest, since the songs are so damn hard to FC even if you know them.


Pretty much this. If there has to be these free form sections then there needs to be a score limit. Seriously- especially when half the people at the top are using a keyboard or some sort of tool assist. If they aren't and it's their actual voice being used then where are the videos of people getting these scores?


I think GH Vocals are awesome though- incredibly challenging and very rewarding when you get a FC =)

That's all.
_________________
i9U9a7o.pnghg81il.png
Back to top
View user's profile Wiki User Page Send private message Visit poster's website XBL Gamertag: cRANKbALL
iceefudgesickle  





Joined: 26 Jan 2008
Posts: 517

PostPosted: Tue Apr 14, 2009 3:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Megaman703 wrote:
Another thing that really bugs me were people saying GH:WT's system was "broken" and GH:M's system is "fixed". GH:M did nothing but change the measure in which percentages are scored. If you seriously think that GH:WT was broken just because you can't get 100%, maybe you need to rethink why you're playing this game.


GH:WT not giving out 100%s was a really bad idea and it was a wonderful fix in GHM. You couldn't get gold stars no matter what, which made it just plain annoying to get an FC but see no gold stars, plus there were achievements like "100% a song as a band" that were just plain ridiculous and impossible on anything but No Sleep Til Brooklyn.

I agree that GH has a much better system of scoring, but overall, it is a much worse system. It's impossible to tell what pitches you're going to sing, and you don't get any points for a phrase under SP unless you finish it, which is ridiculous.
_________________

Back to top
View user's profile Send private message XBL Gamertag: iceefudgesickle
Raikri999  





Joined: 12 Jan 2008
Posts: 1573

PostPosted: Tue Apr 14, 2009 4:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Megaman703 wrote:

Another thing that really bugs me were people saying GH:WT's system was "broken" and GH:M's system is "fixed". GH:M did nothing but change the measure in which percentages are scored. If you seriously think that GH:WT was broken just because you can't get 100%, maybe you need to rethink why you're playing this game.
GH:WT also gave scores via phrases, such as if you got a 98% on a phrase, you'd get 98% of 500 added to your score(So it seems, do the math etc.). In GH:M, if you get an excellent, you get 500 points and that's it. I would appreciate if you could get 100% and still have the same scoring system as GH:WT instead of GH:M.
Back to top
View user's profile Wiki User Page Send private message
dogfoodnyc  





Joined: 02 Mar 2008
Posts: 1218
Location: New Hyde Park, NY

PostPosted: Tue Apr 14, 2009 1:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I used to hate GHWT's vocals. But I haven't try it again since I bought GHM and I really enjoy playing GHM (well, not caring for the scoring system). The GH vocals scoring system in general is more challenging IMO b/c it is more complicated to path and stuff.


Also, I also believe the GH vocals is still at it's early stage where most people are still trying to just master the engine. I for one, is really enjoying playing GHM on vox simply b/c I totally suck at pathing so I am trying to figure this thing out myself instead of looking up for threads.

But in the end, I like both sides (at least for GHM, I really should go back and try a few songs on WT again just to see if I've gotten better). As for freeforms, I can live with or without ^_^
_________________
Dogfoodnyc (PS3)

My YouTube Channel
Back to top
View user's profile Wiki User Page Send private message PSN Name: dogfoodnyc
matt1592  





Joined: 21 Jul 2008
Posts: 51

PostPosted: Tue Apr 14, 2009 7:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with everything everyone said especially GuitarHailz. But what ToyMachine said is the thing that bothers me. I'm somewhat close to all the top vocalists on World Tour and I ASSURE you that they don't use anything but their voice. They may use a keyboard as a reference but thats about it. I think I went a little too far with the anyone can get a keyboard quote because thats not whats going on. When someone talks about the "top vocalists" cheating it completely insults me. Whether I know them in real life or not, they are my friends and I know for sure they NOT cheating. This is why I'm coming out of my comfort zone and making this post- I want to show people that we are legit. We worked together to figure out these freeforms and without them I wouldn't have ANY knowledge of freeforms. I've never really talked to KIXXER MASS so I can't say anything on his regard.

- @ GuitarHailz I think that any FC in Rock Band is more of an expectation than an achievement. Its one of the gripes I have on that game. But the fun factor on Rock Band is a lot higher especially if your playing with friends. I really kinda stopped buy WT DLC and I'm getting more Rock Band songs because that;s the game I usually go to I just singing for fun.

I also want to add that I REALLY appreciate that you guys made this a good conversation rather then some kind of flame war that I was expecting.


Last edited by matt1592 on Tue Apr 14, 2009 8:18 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
matt1592  





Joined: 21 Jul 2008
Posts: 51

PostPosted: Tue Apr 14, 2009 8:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

@ GuitarHailz I was looking at your post and you mentioned something that I meant to write but completely forgot. What is a good GH/RB vocalist? This is something I've been thinking about all the way back to the end of last summer. I have a friend that lives down the street and he thinks hes better than me at Rock Band vocals. Thats not a big deal I usually people hes better than me. But he beats me I songs I don't know I typically beat him at songs I know. So is a good vocalist on RB/GH the guy that can sing very well or the guy who spends hours interpreting the pitch for each song? In my opinion only you can decide who is "#1" and the leaderboards only show who happened to get the most points. It really is hard and complicated but it gets me thinking.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
matt1592  





Joined: 21 Jul 2008
Posts: 51

PostPosted: Tue Apr 14, 2009 8:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
where are the videos of people getting these scores?


I don't post any of my high score videos because there are certain techniques that I use to increase the base score of my freeforms that only the human voice can do. I'm not going to go out and show everyone strait up how to do it. Instead I'll tell you guys what told to me in exact quotes. "Go into practice and figure out".
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   This topic is locked: you cannot edit posts or make replies.    ScoreHero Forum Index -> Technique, Style, and Gameplay -> Vocals All times are GMT
Goto page 1, 2, 3  Next
Page 1 of 3

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum




Copyright © 2006-2024 ScoreHero, LLC
Terms of Use | Privacy Policy


Powered by phpBB