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PS2/Wii vocals vs. 360/PS3 vocals: Differences?
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GuitarHailz  





Joined: 11 Jun 2007
Posts: 4910
Location: Austin, Texas

PostPosted: Wed Apr 29, 2009 5:00 am    Post subject: PS2/Wii vocals vs. 360/PS3 vocals: Differences? Reply with quote

I thought this might be an interesting topic of discussion/investigation for those of you that have two systems...

I've been wondering if there are differences between the PS2/Wii and 360/PS3 versions of GHM or GHWT.

We saw this visibly in Rock Band with the talkies on PS2 and Wii, and I'm wondering if GH has been effected as well, since the developers are different after all.

The reason I bring this up is for a few reasons: Well the most obvious is the fact that a FGFC on both games was achieved on PS2. Granted, that player was the extreme hax0r dramacomic (an NS tester to boot), but I'm curious still if he would have done any different on the 360 or PS3.

360 being the most popular system, I guess I find it odd that with a handful of talented people playing both games we wouldn't see someone at least be able to come close to the FC count of dramacomic. Again, this is a hard conclusion to draw since vocals are so barren to begin with. Give me your thoughts.

Another reason I think of this comes from one of Smeddy's Stone Cold Crazy Wii comments: "Seems easier on Wii? Or maybe I've gotten better since the demo...."

I don't ever want to make any wild assumptions, so stop right now before you put words in my mouth. I'm just curious if there are any vocalists out there who have played on both systems and have noticed any differences?

Lets not let this degenerate into a flame war ala the whole "PAL/NTSC strum limit" thing. Haxing vocals is insane all around and if there ARE proven differences, that still gives NO ONE the right to demean an accomplishment just because of the system it was gotten on. I just wondered if anyone had done some comparing in this department.

I was thinking of renting the PS2 or Wii version (I have access to both) just out of plain curiosity. Would anyone really care about the results if I did so?
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Megaman703  





Joined: 29 Jul 2006
Posts: 91

PostPosted: Wed Apr 29, 2009 5:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm fairly average when it comes to this site's standards, but I have played on WT for both the Wii and the 360 for a significant amount of time. I can definitely say that there is a big difference when it comes to the vocal system.

I'm not sure I can fully explain what the difference is, but it seems to me like the 360 version was more scrit in the pitch recognition. With the 360 version, I found that the comet was on the pitch line, but it didn't always turn the pitch line yellow. With the Wii version, it seemed like that problem never occured; when the comet was over the pitch line, it counted it all the time and turned it yellow.

Also, it seemed to me that the 360 version was better in picking up pitches for the freeforms, and with the wii version, I'd have to hold the note for a little bit to get it to register.

I'll see if I can tinker with it more. Actually, I have both versions in my household right now, so if there's any specific tests I could do, just let me know!
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BOYOBOYY  





Joined: 14 Jun 2007
Posts: 154
Location: Telford, UK

PostPosted: Wed Apr 29, 2009 6:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I always wondered if there was a difference between different console versions of the game

I was watching this video of Parabola vocals on the PS3- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3CuuyjWkiYo and I noticed that he did'nt do (what I would define as) a good job on the freeforms yet still managed to get a high base multiplier.
What I mean is, if you sing a note that isn't in key, the left side of the multiplier should stop rising.This guys multiplier seems to go up like crazy, yet if you tried doing what he is doing on the 360 version I'm convinced you would not get as many points.

Megaman, heres a task for you if you would be so kind as to accept: experiment with the freeform sections and see if theres any difference in the rate at which the base multiplier increases.
I would suggest looking at the same song on both consoles, compare the points scored off a single freeform (see on-disc freeforms thread). Parabola would be a good one to try.
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GuitarHailz  





Joined: 11 Jun 2007
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 29, 2009 6:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Megaman703 wrote:
I'm fairly average when it comes to this site's standards, but I have played on WT for both the Wii and the 360 for a significant amount of time. I can definitely say that there is a big difference when it comes to the vocal system.

I'm not sure I can fully explain what the difference is, but it seems to me like the 360 version was more scrit in the pitch recognition. With the 360 version, I found that the comet was on the pitch line, but it didn't always turn the pitch line yellow. With the Wii version, it seemed like that problem never occured; when the comet was over the pitch line, it counted it all the time and turned it yellow.

Also, it seemed to me that the 360 version was better in picking up pitches for the freeforms, and with the wii version, I'd have to hold the note for a little bit to get it to register.

I'll see if I can tinker with it more. Actually, I have both versions in my household right now, so if there's any specific tests I could do, just let me know!


Thanks a ton for your input. I'm trying to think of a specific "test" that I could ask you to do... I know that if I were to rent the PS2 version of GHM the first thing I would do is play Stone Cold Crazy, just to see if I could possibly FC it.

I've noticed what you mentioned a lot of times with the 360 version, but I never had a system to compare it to to know that was "odd." Sometimes I swear I'm singing the right pitch, and the comet is floating over the tube, but the tube isn't turning yellow. I know I may be singing the wrong pitch, but when the comet is visibly floating over the tube, it should at least turn PARTIALLY yellow. I may not be spot on, but the game has the balls to go "hey you've got it but you're not getting credit LOL." Typically I can at least get a little yellow out of the pitches I'm off on. That being said, I wish that the visual representation of "am I hitting the note?" was different entirely. If they expect us to be this accurate I think the comet should be smaller or something, so I can see when I'm really not hitting the note. Right now its just a not-fun guessing game, ESPECIALLY when star power is on. >_<

I talk with BrianBAM19 a lot, and he's mentioned another problem on the 360 version that we like to call "500 solids." Where the game gives him the necessary 500 points for an Excellent, but breaks his combo and gives him a Solid. I don't know how common this is, but I shudder to think if I've gotten any of these...

Also, if the PS2/Wii vocals have harder/more broken (in a bad way) freeforms, maybe that's why I'm still first overall, even though drama has FC'd the whole game? I've tried to learn the freestyles as best I can, but I would feel like an asshole if there was NO way drama could catch me if the freestyles were broken for him.

Funny... 360 users have higher scores but lower FC count. It's hard to say which is worse. I'll probably break down and rent the PS2 version over the summer, and I'll post the results here.
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Smeddy24  





Joined: 31 Dec 2007
Posts: 1778

PostPosted: Thu Apr 30, 2009 6:05 am    Post subject: Re: PS2/Wii vocals vs. 360/PS3 vocals: Differences? Reply with quote

GuitarHailz wrote:

Another reason I think of this comes from one of Smeddy's Stone Cold Crazy Wii comments: "Seems easier on Wii? Or maybe I've gotten better since the demo...."
I'll happily drop in here. I had already heard that the Wii engine is supposed to be easier when I posted that, but I did 4* that, something I never managed on the demo, though I've only 3* every run since my very first, so it could've been very very lucky. I think I'll have access to the full 360 version in the middle of May, hopefully I'll be able to do some runs on songs that I can dependably 5*, with freeforms and without. I've been doing runs in GHM lately, and while I'm not dependably FCing everything, a lot of these songs I should be able to %* consistently.

From what I've seen of GHM on the Wii, it seems like the devs were given the specifications/design documents that were used in building the 360/PS3 version, and built a more platform appropriate engine. I really do hope we can find some way to test this.

Who's got two TVs, two mics, and two consoles in the same room?
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GuitarHailz  





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PostPosted: Thu Apr 30, 2009 2:36 pm    Post subject: Re: PS2/Wii vocals vs. 360/PS3 vocals: Differences? Reply with quote

Smeddy24 wrote:
GuitarHailz wrote:

Another reason I think of this comes from one of Smeddy's Stone Cold Crazy Wii comments: "Seems easier on Wii? Or maybe I've gotten better since the demo...."
I'll happily drop in here. I had already heard that the Wii engine is supposed to be easier when I posted that, but I did 4* that, something I never managed on the demo, though I've only 3* every run since my very first, so it could've been very very lucky. I think I'll have access to the full 360 version in the middle of May, hopefully I'll be able to do some runs on songs that I can dependably 5*, with freeforms and without. I've been doing runs in GHM lately, and while I'm not dependably FCing everything, a lot of these songs I should be able to %* consistently.

From what I've seen of GHM on the Wii, it seems like the devs were given the specifications/design documents that were used in building the 360/PS3 version, and built a more platform appropriate engine. I really do hope we can find some way to test this.

Who's got two TVs, two mics, and two consoles in the same room?


Well it's not in the same room mayhaps, but I live with my fiance and we have 2 TV's and 2 360's in rooms right next to each other. We also have a Wii and PS2 (which would be easy to hook up and rent the GHM version for). It would be funny to hold both mics to my mouth at the same time (the wires should reach) and see how I do differently on the different engines. XD If I do that I should make a video...
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NavyCherub  





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PostPosted: Thu Apr 30, 2009 7:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If the Wii version is different (read: easier), than that's really important information. The sooner we know the better, because if it really is easier, than I'm getting the Wii version. But if it's easier, than that's also kind of messed up.
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Smeddy24  





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PostPosted: Thu Apr 30, 2009 7:36 pm    Post subject: Re: PS2/Wii vocals vs. 360/PS3 vocals: Differences? Reply with quote

GuitarHailz wrote:
Smeddy24 wrote:
GuitarHailz wrote:

Another reason I think of this comes from one of Smeddy's Stone Cold Crazy Wii comments: "Seems easier on Wii? Or maybe I've gotten better since the demo...."
I'll happily drop in here. I had already heard that the Wii engine is supposed to be easier when I posted that, but I did 4* that, something I never managed on the demo, though I've only 3* every run since my very first, so it could've been very very lucky. I think I'll have access to the full 360 version in the middle of May, hopefully I'll be able to do some runs on songs that I can dependably 5*, with freeforms and without. I've been doing runs in GHM lately, and while I'm not dependably FCing everything, a lot of these songs I should be able to %* consistently.

From what I've seen of GHM on the Wii, it seems like the devs were given the specifications/design documents that were used in building the 360/PS3 version, and built a more platform appropriate engine. I really do hope we can find some way to test this.

Who's got two TVs, two mics, and two consoles in the same room?


Well it's not in the same room mayhaps, but I live with my fiance and we have 2 TV's and 2 360's in rooms right next to each other. We also have a Wii and PS2 (which would be easy to hook up and rent the GHM version for). It would be funny to hold both mics to my mouth at the same time (the wires should reach) and see how I do differently on the different engines. XD If I do that I should make a video...
I think I'll be able to try it, actually, if I can get the TVs. I'll make sure to bring an extra mic and my wii copy to test it, that won't be for two weeks, though.
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dramacomic  
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Joined: 20 Jun 2007
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Location: Valley Village, CA

PostPosted: Thu Apr 30, 2009 8:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm inclined to agree with you Hailz. I am no singing virtuoso at all and while there are a few songs that are on the higher end of the difficulty scale, there really shouldn't be any reason why I have the only full game vox FCs on scorehero for GHWT and GHM, given the immense amount of vocal talent displayed on the RB leaderboards. (Granted, there aren't as many vocalists on the GH side since most people prefer the RB system... at least the RB2 system since the talkies aren't as harsh and the pie is easier to decipher than the colored flashes, but that's not what this topic is about).

Although I haven't played it extensively on 360 at work, I didn't feel like it was necessarily impossible to FC things, but I never really went for Stone Cold Crazy and I honestly don't know if I could FC it on 360 or not. The other thing is that GHM seemed a LOT harder than WT, but that's probably for the obvious reason that "Solid" breaks your combo in GHM but it doesn't in WT.

Singing on a 360 side by side with a PS2/Wii probably won't work due to lag/timing issues (unless you start the PS2/Wii song a tiny bit earlier than the 360... or would it be the other way around... fuck I don't know, but let's just say it'd be pretty hard to get it just right). The lag ironically might also be making it easier to FC things since you have to hit the notes early so maybe it "fills" easier? However, I've also noticed the the yellow comet trail will disappear early too. I'm not sure if 360 vocalists have tried singing early to compensate for lag which may or may not be present... that might be something else to consider.

I don't think freeforms are harder on one or the other though. Doughboy is certainly able to get many global 1sts on WT in songs with FFs and he's playing on the PS2.

NavyCherub wrote:
But if it's easier, then that's also kind of messed up.


Sad but true. (no, not the song, I was actually using it to describe.... oh nevermind)

Then again, haven't vocals always been deemed "easier on PS2"? If I remember correctly, PhatTrumpet was first to FC RB1 Vox and that was on PS2, but it wasn't until the Next to You talky was FC'd on 360 that the community really took notice. I'm not sure what can realistically be done to change it or what makes something more difficult on one system, it's just something intangible... noticeable but not measurable. Although Hailz, if you think can measure it, I'm sure your efforts would not go to waste.

I felt like I should post but I haven't felt like I have managed to say something more relevant or insightful in all of this, so basically, ¯\(°_o)/¯
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GuitarHailz  





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PostPosted: Thu Apr 30, 2009 8:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NavyCherub wrote:
If the Wii version is different (read: easier), than that's really important information. The sooner we know the better, because if it really is easier, than I'm getting the Wii version. But if it's easier, than that's also kind of messed up.


If the Wii or PS2 versions are proven to be significantly different (or easier, however you want to put it), I don't think that there should be cross-platform rankings for vocals on SH. We don't have that for the RB side, presumably because the talkies are "easier" on PS2 (I know, I know, Brainpower...). I don't know if cross-platform ranks are in the works for RB or not, but I don't think its fair for engines that differ so greatly to compete with each other like that. But again, this still begs to be more thoroughly tested...

@ dramacomic: I'm really glad you took this topic in the best way possible... I was really worried about a flamewar or something like it, and people insinuating I was saying "BAWWW he only got it 'cause PS2 is easier!" There's no doubt in my mind that you're a beast at vocals, and again, if there are proven differences that doesn't take away from your insane accomplishment.

I don't think that some songs are impossible to FC on the 360 version, I just find it odd that Undead out of nowhere FC's a song like Stone Cold Crazy on the Wii. I know somebody on 360 will FC SCC eventually, but the fact that I've probably played the song 10+ times a day since the game came out and managed at best a -2 (both of those being Average) should be telling. (Not that I'm amazing or anything, but the sheer pickyness of this song leads me to think that something is fishy when its FC'd out of nowhere by someone that I don't exactly think of as a vocalist). I don't mean to pick on Undead, because I know he's legit and its an insane FC no matter which way you look at it. But hopefully I'm not the only one who wants this information to be confirmed?

I'm sure a similar topic like this popped up when RB1 first came out and everybody on the PS2 FC'd NtY no problem. 360 and Ps3 users were probably not-as-civil over it. :P I don't mean any disrespect by bringing it up, but this stuff needs to be investigated.

Playing a 360 and PS2 at the same time was more or less a funny image in my head, but in hindsight I guess it wouldn't work well. I might try it anyway for fun though!

As for the lag comment, I usually play with my video lag set to 50 and it helps a lot (I think most of the "top" 360 vocalists do this, I remember a thread in this forum about it a while ago...). I know I could in theory FC every song if I sat down to practice them all, but it shouldn't take such a gross amount of time to FC songs that I already know. I don't mind going into practice mode, figuring out that hard chorus or phrase, or whatever. It's all part of the experience. But its just not right if that whole experience is made "easier" because of the system one is playing on.

But I'm jumping to conclusions again... I need to test this before I say anything else. Thanks for the input guys!

dramacomic wrote:
Then again, haven't vocals always been deemed "easier on PS2"? If I remember correctly, PhatTrumpet was first to FC RB1 Vox and that was on PS2, but it wasn't until the Next to You talky was FC'd on 360 that the community really took notice. I'm not sure what can realistically be done to change it or what makes something more difficult on one system, it's just something intangible... noticeable but not measurable. Although Hailz, if you think can measure it, I'm sure your efforts would not go to waste.

I felt like I should post but I haven't felt like I have managed to say something more relevant or insightful in all of this, so basically, ¯\(°_o)/¯


Actually, you make a really good point. I would be aggravated too if I FC'd an entire game on the "easy system" but nobody really gave it a second thought because it was the "easy system." It's not fair to you. :/ I guess that's why it was important to me that a GHM FC was front paged, regardless of what system it was on.

We're also throwing around the word "easy" a lot, when none of us really knows what we're talking about (mostly me...). Maybe it's not that PS2/Wii is too easy, but maybe 360 is too hard? Either way, lets all glare at people until they make all of the engines the same. >=(

You're right about it being difficult to measure the exact differences, if any. The best way WOULD be to try and sing on both systems at the same time, but only a tiny lag difference would completely throw off the results. I could ask Deus to help me, and it would at least be worth a try. I'm always open to more ideas too.
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Danyh  





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PostPosted: Fri May 01, 2009 4:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

PS3 : Barely passed BYOB in medium.
PS2 : FC'd expert BYOB.
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jamie-the-payne  





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PostPosted: Fri May 01, 2009 9:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Danyh wrote:
PS3 : Barely passed BYOB in medium.
PS2 : FC'd expert BYOB.

PS3: Failed Rebel Yell at the beginning Expert.
Wii: 5* Rebel Yell Expert.
Does seem that Wii/PS2 is easier.
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think13  





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PostPosted: Mon May 11, 2009 8:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It seems like all of the things posted on this board so far have been anecdotal-I would prefer some more hard evidence to show that some systems are easier than others.

Here is my first attempt at this.
Top 25 Vox Xpert rankings:
1 PS2, 3 PS3, 7 Wii, 14 XBox

This makes it look like XBox is easier, but this is just because more people own the XBox version of the game. So to check if Wii/PS2 is favored, compare these values to Guitar.

Top 25 Guitar Xpert rankings:
5 PS2, 1 PS3, 3 Wii, 16 XBox

It doesn't look to me like there is a favoritism towards Wii and PS2 in the top rankings for Vocals. There are 8 combined Wii-PS2 in the top 25 rankings for both Vocals and Guitar.
Of course the best test would be using the same singer for both systems at the same time.

Note that this test only tests scores, not how easy it is to FC, although I would argue that top scores and FCability are related.
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GuitarHailz  





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PostPosted: Mon May 11, 2009 8:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Your logic seems backwards. If there's more people on the 360/PS3, there's at least more people trying, and in theory there should be more 360/PS3 FCs. That's what I'm thinking anyway.

I'd love to try and play both systems at the same time and give you hard evidence... believe me. :P But until then we just have to go off of what we know.

The reason 360 is leading overall may also be because of the freestyles. If freestyles are "broken" on a Wii and PS2, there's no possible way dramacomic could beat me even though he has a FGFC. I just want to know for sure what the differences are, because this certainly effects cross-platform ranks.

On that note, I played on a PS3 yesterday and I got 76K on Stone Cold Crazy after at least 10 tries. I may have just been out of practice with the song, but it felt awfully picky, even moreso than the 360, since I'm used to having 65K by the 2nd verse.
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think13  





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PostPosted: Fri May 15, 2009 6:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The point I'm trying to make is that we know that Guitar scores aren't favored for one system over another. That means that the Guitar scores reflect the mix of people playing the game at a high level fairly accurately. Since the mix of people in the Guitar top 25 closely resembles the people in the Vocal top 25, it looks like there isn't a huge advantage toward Wii/PS2.
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