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iceefudgesickle
Joined: 26 Jan 2008
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 Posted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 5:52 am Post subject: |
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| Rawrspoon wrote: | Just for reference, I'm going to post the extreme opposite of NSTB. although it's on Rock Band, Visions is the toughest on-disk OMBFC. Guitar is very difficult, drums are insane, bass is ungodly difficult, yet vocals are so easy it's comparable to vocals on beginner in the GH games.
So yes, I believe NSTB deserves the spot of easiest OMBFC. |
I don't personally think that matters - it's uncomparable to NSTB because there are THREE tough instruments on Visions while there is only one tough instrument on NSTB. It's really not comparable in the slightest.
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fudrick
Joined: 17 Feb 2008
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Location: Orlando, Florida
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| Posted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 6:00 am Post subject: |
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| iceefudgesickle wrote: | | I don't personally think that matters - it's uncomparable to NSTB because there are THREE tough instruments on Visions while there is only one tough instrument on NSTB. It's really not comparable in the slightest. |
...which is why he said Visions is the complete opposite of NSTB. lrn2read
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FC Goals: GH1 - 46 [43] | GH2 - 64 [63] | GH80's - 30 [29] | GH3 - 70 [68] | GHA - 41 [00] | GHWT - 85 [00] | GHM - 48 [10] | GHSH - 47 [00] | RB2 - 84 [02]
   
  
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iceefudgesickle
Joined: 26 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2009 2:55 am Post subject: |
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| Rawrspoon wrote: | I meant it's the toughest OMBFC on RB. Toughest OMBFC overall might be Constant Motion with its blisteringly hard drums and guitar parts.
Edit: Nevermind, it's probably What a Horrible Night to Have a Curse. Being so insane on drums and bass as well as VERY tough on guitar. |
The toughest OMBFC on RB is either Crawl or Young Man Blues, whichever is more impossible to FC on its respective impossible instrument (I'm leaning more towards Young Man Blues because it's highly possible the strum limit may be eliminated someday, and chokes are EXTREMELY likely even if you FC the hardest part in YMB, whereas there's almost no choking chance with Crawl.)
Both of those songs can pretty much be considered impossible to FC with the current drum equipment we have and the strum limit we have. Even the songs in the Mayhem pack, or Visions, or any other songs that are ridiculously hard on more than just one instrument - the fact remains that the songs are possible, thus they are easier. I'm not denying the extreme difficulty of WAHNTHAC or This is Exile or anything like that, but I could actually see someone being able to FC those songs sometime in the future.
I'm still going to have to respectfully disagree about NSTB being #1. About the whole "vocals are actually a factor in GH vocals" - not so much in WT, keeping a combo is much easier in WT than in the other two games. On harder vocals songs, it's certainly a playing factor in the placement of the song, but What I've Done? Um, no. Not to mention the other three instruments are so ridiculously easy that vocals are probably the hardest of all four. Both drums and guitar are easier on What I've Done, and neither the bass nor the vocals are much harder on What I've Done. NSTB should definitely be at least #2.
| fudrick wrote: | | iceefudgesickle wrote: | | I don't personally think that matters - it's uncomparable to NSTB because there are THREE tough instruments on Visions while there is only one tough instrument on NSTB. It's really not comparable in the slightest. |
...which is why he said Visions is the complete opposite of NSTB. lrn2read |
I never said Visions wasn't the complete opposite of NSTB. I just said they're not comparable. He was trying to use Visions as an example for why NSTB should be #1, and I was simply noting my difference in opinion. lrn2read
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Last edited by iceefudgesickle on Fri Aug 07, 2009 3:01 am; edited 1 time in total |
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fudrick
Joined: 17 Feb 2008
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Location: Orlando, Florida
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| Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2009 3:00 am Post subject: |
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Read what I said earlier. When comparing OMB FC's all instruments are factored in; a song is not a hard OMB FC because of one hard instrument, it is a hard FC on that instrument. Which is why Satch Boogie is lower than HFT, YMB is lower than Visions, etc.
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FC Goals: GH1 - 46 [43] | GH2 - 64 [63] | GH80's - 30 [29] | GH3 - 70 [68] | GHA - 41 [00] | GHWT - 85 [00] | GHM - 48 [10] | GHSH - 47 [00] | RB2 - 84 [02]
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iceefudgesickle
Joined: 26 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2009 3:08 am Post subject: |
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| fudrick wrote: | | I think if this is going to be accurate, equal skill in each instrument should be assumed |
You mean what you say there? Because that quote pretty much proves my point. If equal skill in each instrument is assumed, HfT would be FC'd by the average player LONG BEFORE Satch Boogie.
So here's how it goes:
SB's hardest instrument is guitar.
HfT's hardest instrument is drums.
SB takes more skill on guitar than HfT does on drums. So if equal skill in each instrument is assumed, you would be able to FC all the parts on HfT before you would be able to FC that one part on SB.
Keep in mind that saying that SB takes more skill on guitar than HfT and stuff is an opinion. But really, what if there's a song that is actually proven to be completely impossible to FC on one instrument, but the other three instruments don't even have charts to play on - it's an easier OMB FC than a song that's still really tough, but actually possible?
So possible is harder than impossible?
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fudrick
Joined: 17 Feb 2008
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| Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2009 3:14 am Post subject: |
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I had a feeling you would bring that up, and I realize I may have worded that improperly. I only meant that in response to the person who said something along the lines of "People are better at different instruments so this is impossible."
This is about what's hardest to OMB FC, again. We have breakdowns for instruments. If a song is only hard on one instrument, it is a hard FC on that instrument but not so much a hard OMB FC. I know I'm repeating myself but I can't think of a better way to explain it.
If we do it the way you're saying we should, this will be a pointless list. It would basically be a list of how hard the song's hardest instrument is, which you can figure out with the other breakdowns.
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FC Goals: GH1 - 46 [43] | GH2 - 64 [63] | GH80's - 30 [29] | GH3 - 70 [68] | GHA - 41 [00] | GHWT - 85 [00] | GHM - 48 [10] | GHSH - 47 [00] | RB2 - 84 [02]
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iceefudgesickle
Joined: 26 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2009 3:24 am Post subject: |
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| fudrick wrote: | I had a feeling you would bring that up, and I realize I may have worded that improperly. I only meant that in response to the person who said something along the lines of "People are better at different instruments so this is impossible."
This is about what's hardest to OMB FC, again. We have breakdowns for instruments. If a song is only hard on one instrument, it is a hard FC on that instrument but not so much a hard OMB FC. I know I'm repeating myself but I can't think of a better way to explain it.
If we do it the way you're saying we should, this will be a pointless list. It would basically be a list of how hard the song's hardest instrument is, which you can figure out with the other breakdowns. |
Hmm. Well, I suppose we'll just have to disagree, considering I can't see any logic in what you're saying and you can't see any logic in what I'm saying, and I can't think of a better way to explain myself either.
Your last point is good though - but I have to say, it might basically be a list of how hard the song's hardest instrument is ,which is unfortunate, but if that's the right way to do it, that's way it'd have to go, you know? It wouldn't be completely like that, too - only the hardest songs would. Many songs - for example, L'Via, BYOB, Hollywood Nights, HfT) are tough on all instruments or at the very least 3 of them, and those would all be tiered in a "average of the 4 different parts" way.
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ElementOfZero
Joined: 14 Jul 2007
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| Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2009 3:53 am Post subject: |
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| iceefudgesickle wrote: |
SB takes more skill on guitar than HfT does on drums. |
No. You simply can not say that. Nor can we assume everyone has equal skill in ALL instruments, that's a ludicrous assumption to undertake when compiling this list.
(Read the previous OMB FC that we tried to come up with, which involved a mathematical approach on how to rank all the songs. Assigning a difficulty number for each instrument and taking the average, or the sum then root it....and so on.
Such as NSTB: V:0 G: 30 B:5 D:5
would be low on the list but, it still beats out easy on all instruments such as Up Around The Bend V:15 G:5 B:5 D:10
While this SB and HfT comparison would be something along the lines of
G:45 D:50 B:50 V i don't know where they rank on the Vocal breakdown, so lets say)25
very high average when looking across all instruments.
Satch Boogie
V:0 G:50 D:15 B:15
Guitar is the absolute hardest , while the rest are either non existent or comparably easy. )
| Quote: | | So if equal skill in each instrument is assumed, you would be able to FC all the parts on HfT before you would be able to FC that one part on SB. |
Except this is a special case with SB, because it's almost 100% dependent on the broken slide sections which the hardest two parts of the song lay. But, I'll come back to that later.
You can't assume there's equal skill across all instruments for every person, there's little cases where this is true--and none that I know where the impossible hard songs have been FCed on multiple instruments by the same person. (i.e. satch guitar, Purple Haze drums, L'via vocals, and so on...)
The drums and guitar take different skill sets, are compiled completely differently in terms of how to FC and is terrible ignorant to say Satch Boogie takes more skill to hit than, hell, every section of HfT drums. It's also note worthy that SB has two choke sections, Solo D + F, where as it's 10x more likely to miss anywhere in HfT drums due to either difficulty or just "easy" places to miss. [by that I mean off beat, changes in pattern, activating SP, overhit before a fill, any nuances with a drum chart]
But, at this point I do give in to the notion that SB may be the harder OMB purely because of it's purple notes. If we were to assume in some freak way that our progression in skill and FCs were equal on all instruments, SB wouldn't be such a massive obstacle. But the fact remains we can't take away the slide sections, so the artificial difficult imposed by the chart remains.
| Quote: |
Keep in mind that saying that SB takes more skill on guitar than HfT and stuff is an opinion. But really, what if there's a song that is actually proven to be completely impossible to FC on one instrument, but the other three instruments don't even have charts to play on - it's an easier OMB FC than a song that's still really tough, but actually possible?
So possible is harder than impossible? |
That's entirely the difficulty of making these lists. People have their own terms of what "skill" actually is. But, when making the list we should address their respective all-ready done breakdown lists and sort it according to those. On those lists, you'll find Hft at the bottom of everyone, but SB is only at the bottom of one. In the strictest sense, HfT should be the hardest OMB FC. [on a different note, I think a OMBFGFC is achievable for WT, unlike SH or GHM, just because if enough work is applied, someone could* FC satch guitar; HfT, PH, Tool drums; HfT, BYOB bass; and whatever vocals. I can't say the same for TTFAF g+d, or War Ensemble g+d]
As for the last part of your post, if there is an impossible song on any one instrument, then it's the hardest OMB above all other insanely hard FC on all instruments. You can't get a OMBFC without an FC of all the parts :P
note: listening to danny's stream at the time of writing, sorry for any syntax errors.
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fudrick
Joined: 17 Feb 2008
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| Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2009 4:02 am Post subject: |
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I like how you say it's ridiculous to assume that each instrument be considered equally but then suggest the exact same thing.
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FC Goals: GH1 - 46 [43] | GH2 - 64 [63] | GH80's - 30 [29] | GH3 - 70 [68] | GHA - 41 [00] | GHWT - 85 [00] | GHM - 48 [10] | GHSH - 47 [00] | RB2 - 84 [02]
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iceefudgesickle
Joined: 26 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2009 4:05 am Post subject: |
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Element put it best. What he said should be the official rules of the breakdown IMO
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ElementOfZero
Joined: 14 Jul 2007
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| Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2009 4:24 am Post subject: |
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| fudrick wrote: | | I like how you say it's ridiculous to assume that each instrument be considered equally but then suggest the exact same thing. |
You missed the point, it was about NOT assuming the skill needed was equal across all instruments. The difficulty over the song per instrument should be considered as separate entities and weighted equally.
Of course, that's easy to do with all 82 other songs. HfT and SB is a very peculiar case due to the "impossible"-ness of the artificial difficulty of solo D and F due to the engine.
I say HfT should get #84 spot, but those who disagree and say SB have a strong case.
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ace5993
Joined: 30 Mar 2008
Posts: 1920
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| Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2009 4:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Okay, added a few more songs and also swapped What I've Done and NSTB. I could honestly go either way on those but it seems most people want WID at easiest so that's fine. Hopefully the list will be complete by this weekend. |
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Pas26
Joined: 04 Oct 2008
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Location: Québec, Canada
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| Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2009 8:54 pm Post subject: |
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Saying that Satch Boogie only has 2 choke points is ridiculous. Multiple annoying strums, slow HOPOs to kill those who likes to play stuff a little too fast, Solo D, the unFCable monster, and Solo F. One could say: there are only 2 hard parts! But remember that Solo F is 30 seconds long, so it's not "one" choke point. It's a choke-fest, where you could miss anywhere in the zigzag. Once you learned the main thing on HfT drums, and once you get semi-consistent with the rolls, you only need that special run, just like HiC. IIRC, the rolls in HFT aren't anything special.
From the chart:
Rolls are about 12.5 NPS. All of them are very short (under 10 notes long). They are pretty odd, the notes being grouped in group of 3, but shouldn't be hard for someone who could de the main riff of the song (double hits).
If Satch Boogie hard parts were at the very beginning of the song, HfT would be harder... but they aren't.
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ElementOfZero
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| Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2009 9:56 pm Post subject: |
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The triplet rolls aren't the problem, it's the 26 NPS fills that occur in the beginning, middle, and end. Also, they're the fastest rolls to appear in either game. Plus, you've got the repeating 17.5 NPS stuff in the intro.
But, I find Purple Haze to be as hard, if not harder to FC. I've hit every section on HfT, and all but Solo 1B on Purple Haze. It's just crazy throughout the entire song. Not to mention pain in the neck vocals, where you can't tell pitch. It's high up on the breakdown for bass, and the guitar is notorious for the purple notes on it also. Not easy by any means on any instruments. It's a good contender for the top 3/5 hardest.
Purple Haze, Vicarious, and Assassin should be ranked harder than Stranglehold. Unless someone can argue that the vocals solely make them easier, which I doubt. Stranglehold has very few phrases.
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Pas26
Joined: 04 Oct 2008
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Location: Québec, Canada
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| Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2009 11:34 pm Post subject: |
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| ElementOfZero wrote: | The triplet rolls aren't the problem, it's the 26 NPS fills that occur in the beginning, middle, and end. Also, they're the fastest rolls to appear in either game. Plus, you've got the repeating 17.5 NPS stuff in the intro.
But, I find Purple Haze to be as hard, if not harder to FC. I've hit every section on HfT, and all but Solo 1B on Purple Haze. It's just crazy throughout the entire song. Not to mention pain in the neck vocals, where you can't tell pitch. It's high up on the breakdown for bass, and the guitar is notorious for the purple notes on it also. Not easy by any means on any instruments. It's a good contender for the top 3/5 hardest.
Purple Haze, Vicarious, and Assassin should be ranked harder than Stranglehold. Unless someone can argue that the vocals solely make them easier, which I doubt. Stranglehold has very few phrases. |
I missed those fills o_O
I agree completely on Purple Haze. It's lolwut on drums, tricky on bass (Some note changes are on upstrum (talking about the nasty outro)), and that zigzag is broken on guitar. IMO, easily top 5 OMB.
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