Starcraft II - NASL going strong, thread going strong

[CTangent]

[CTangent]

[suspectfenster]

[suspectfenster]

[CTangent]

I've been trying to learn zerg for the past week and I've been getting absolutely smoked in the bronze league.

My main problem is that I don't know how to handle turtling players, I think... I played a game recently against a Protoss that did a 4gate fast expand by walling off his natural, and I just flat out didn't know what to do... I expanded twice and droned pretty hard, and when the push finally came my mass of units stood no chance against the stalkers and void rays that this guy had.

Whenever I try to mount an assault to stop the tech, I get owned; whenever I tech and macro to keep up with my opponent, I get owned... I don't know what else to do, haha. I'm something like 10-2 in twelve games, and I'm missing something important... what can I do?
_________________

Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth. ~Oscar Wilde

[CTangent]

I've been trying to learn zerg for the past week and I've been getting absolutely smoked in the bronze league.

My main problem is that I don't know how to handle turtling players, I think... I played a game recently against a Protoss that did a 4gate fast expand by walling off his natural, and I just flat out didn't know what to do... I expanded twice and droned pretty hard, and when the push finally came my mass of units stood no chance against the stalkers and void rays that this guy had.

Whenever I try to mount an assault to stop the tech, I get owned; whenever I tech and macro to keep up with my opponent, I get owned... I don't know what else to do, haha. I'm something like 10-2 in twelve games, and I'm missing something important... what can I do?
_________________

Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth. ~Oscar Wilde

[suspectfenster]

[suspectfenster]

[iamstoned]

Hi,

I'm glad to see there are quite a few SC2-players in here
I'll just leave my ingame-nick here so ppl may add me if they wish to although I'm almost not playing it anymore since GH:WoR is out lol

Scorehero nick: iamstoned
SC2 nick: TheCube.431
Race: Zerg
League: Platinum
Server: EU

[iamstoned]

Hi,

I'm glad to see there are quite a few SC2-players in here
I'll just leave my ingame-nick here so ppl may add me if they wish to although I'm almost not playing it anymore since GH:WoR is out lol

Scorehero nick: iamstoned
SC2 nick: TheCube.431
Race: Zerg
League: Platinum
Server: EU

[CTangent]

[CTangent]

[suspectfenster]

CTanget, I am watching your replay now. Analysis below, I will note everything I see and then summarize:

• You probably just had a mental error but if you didn't know, OL on 9 is optimal. You extractor tricked with OL on 10 but that is actually slightly worse. Not a big deal though...
  
• I have to ask -- do you use hotkeys? If not, this should be a primary concern right now, as it's pivotal to getting better. I noticed you frequently looking back at your hatch to make drones, this is not necessary. Just 5sd (in your case) to make a drone, you can keep doing whatever else it is you're doing. If you ARE using hotkeys, just try and do more stuff without looking at your base.
  
• 14 pool 13 hatch is not a build I am familiar with, so I'm going to assume it's not very good. I have seen 14 hatch 14 pool, 14 pool 15 hatch. Given that you saw the pylon at the expo, you should have gone hatch first, but even so you could have droned up some more after that pool went down before throwing down the hatch (use your larvae!).
  
• Roach warren immediately after pool is an awful idea if you are going for a FE (I'm pretty sure). You should have at the very least gotten your queen first, and you just didn't have enough drones to support a warren.
  
• Something interesting here is that your opponent really didn't FE, he just build a wall and put up an expo semi-earlier than normal after a 4 gate. You did not need those roaches, and could have built drones instead. Imagine if you had delayed the warren a bit, you'd have far more minerals to drone.
  
• You kept 3 guys on gas the whole time, as zerg you typically want one on gas while you are building roaches, 3 if you want speed but then pull 2 off the minute you start speed. Put them back on once you want lair tech -- you had too much gas and not enough minerals at the 6min mark.
  
• 8 min, you have a LOT of larvae at your main. I think you forgot about it for a while, for this purpose it may be helpful to have a hotkey for all your hatches. Those could have been a ton of drones.
  
• Your spine crawlers were in good position before you moved them. They were placed such that if he wanted to engage, you'd either have the greater concave or he'd have to force move into them. You moved them so they were at the choke, and the stalkers could get a good concave against them.
  
• For much of this game you were too gas heavy. If this happens, just pull some guys off of gas for a while, easy as that.
  
• Good job holding the stalkers but you could have killed that army by moving lings around and bringing roaches up (it would have been close in fairness, he still have gotten a few away). At any rate you could have picked off a bit more.
  
• Okay, this is important -- he retreats with his stalkers and you made lings. Why? He's retreating, make some drones and press your advantage to stay ahead. The only case you wouldn't want to do this if you wanted to counter, which you could have done but you weren't, so make drones.
  
• 13 min WAY too many resources. Hydra den should have gone up a long time ago and you have lots of larvae for roaches. Hell, take a third if you want to, the extra larvae will help.
  
• You got the spire right after the hydra den, which confused me a bit, but then you didn't produce mutas out of it once it was done. It looks like you just didn't have a plan here, and like Day9 says, always have a plan. You build the hydra den, why not go roach hydra? You were even getting the ups.
  
• No reason you couldn't have killed the rocks at the gold. You had total map control.
  
• You engaged in a pretty awful spot. That little bottleneck on blistering sands is death, you had creep out in the open and a sizeable army. It would have been close but you should have spread your army for a concave.
  

Okay so that was long and very nitpicky. You did some stuff pretty well, the zergling flank was nice, getting ups is awesome, and your creep spread was sick. Mostly, you need to macro better. Get all of your hatches on one hotkey so you can pump units really easily, and keep your money low.


I've linked below a replay of me beating a very hard computer, which you said you had trouble on. I made it against a P on blistering sands, so it's similar to the game you played. I admit it was close, I barely held that push but that's how zerg is. Obviously I made a fair share of mistakes, but overall I think I played decently. Just watch the rep from my perspective so you have an idea of what I'm doing. Obviously I'm no pro but I think it could help.

http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/106500-1v1-protoss-zerg-blistering-sands#rd:dna

I hope that helps!
_________________

Play TF2? No? What the hell is wrong with you.

[suspectfenster]

CTanget, I am watching your replay now. Analysis below, I will note everything I see and then summarize:

• You probably just had a mental error but if you didn't know, OL on 9 is optimal. You extractor tricked with OL on 10 but that is actually slightly worse. Not a big deal though...
  
• I have to ask -- do you use hotkeys? If not, this should be a primary concern right now, as it's pivotal to getting better. I noticed you frequently looking back at your hatch to make drones, this is not necessary. Just 5sd (in your case) to make a drone, you can keep doing whatever else it is you're doing. If you ARE using hotkeys, just try and do more stuff without looking at your base.
  
• 14 pool 13 hatch is not a build I am familiar with, so I'm going to assume it's not very good. I have seen 14 hatch 14 pool, 14 pool 15 hatch. Given that you saw the pylon at the expo, you should have gone hatch first, but even so you could have droned up some more after that pool went down before throwing down the hatch (use your larvae!).
  
• Roach warren immediately after pool is an awful idea if you are going for a FE (I'm pretty sure). You should have at the very least gotten your queen first, and you just didn't have enough drones to support a warren.
  
• Something interesting here is that your opponent really didn't FE, he just build a wall and put up an expo semi-earlier than normal after a 4 gate. You did not need those roaches, and could have built drones instead. Imagine if you had delayed the warren a bit, you'd have far more minerals to drone.
  
• You kept 3 guys on gas the whole time, as zerg you typically want one on gas while you are building roaches, 3 if you want speed but then pull 2 off the minute you start speed. Put them back on once you want lair tech -- you had too much gas and not enough minerals at the 6min mark.
  
• 8 min, you have a LOT of larvae at your main. I think you forgot about it for a while, for this purpose it may be helpful to have a hotkey for all your hatches. Those could have been a ton of drones.
  
• Your spine crawlers were in good position before you moved them. They were placed such that if he wanted to engage, you'd either have the greater concave or he'd have to force move into them. You moved them so they were at the choke, and the stalkers could get a good concave against them.
  
• For much of this game you were too gas heavy. If this happens, just pull some guys off of gas for a while, easy as that.
  
• Good job holding the stalkers but you could have killed that army by moving lings around and bringing roaches up (it would have been close in fairness, he still have gotten a few away). At any rate you could have picked off a bit more.
  
• Okay, this is important -- he retreats with his stalkers and you made lings. Why? He's retreating, make some drones and press your advantage to stay ahead. The only case you wouldn't want to do this if you wanted to counter, which you could have done but you weren't, so make drones.
  
• 13 min WAY too many resources. Hydra den should have gone up a long time ago and you have lots of larvae for roaches. Hell, take a third if you want to, the extra larvae will help.
  
• You got the spire right after the hydra den, which confused me a bit, but then you didn't produce mutas out of it once it was done. It looks like you just didn't have a plan here, and like Day9 says, always have a plan. You build the hydra den, why not go roach hydra? You were even getting the ups.
  
• No reason you couldn't have killed the rocks at the gold. You had total map control.
  
• You engaged in a pretty awful spot. That little bottleneck on blistering sands is death, you had creep out in the open and a sizeable army. It would have been close but you should have spread your army for a concave.
  

Okay so that was long and very nitpicky. You did some stuff pretty well, the zergling flank was nice, getting ups is awesome, and your creep spread was sick. Mostly, you need to macro better. Get all of your hatches on one hotkey so you can pump units really easily, and keep your money low.


I've linked below a replay of me beating a very hard computer, which you said you had trouble on. I made it against a P on blistering sands, so it's similar to the game you played. I admit it was close, I barely held that push but that's how zerg is. Obviously I made a fair share of mistakes, but overall I think I played decently. Just watch the rep from my perspective so you have an idea of what I'm doing. Obviously I'm no pro but I think it could help.

http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/106500-1v1-protoss-zerg-blistering-sands#rd:dna

I hope that helps!
_________________

Play TF2? No? What the hell is wrong with you.

[CTangent]

Thank you very much, I appreciate you input . And nitpickiness is good! I need to straighten my play up... I've definitely got a long way to go, and i'll certainly keep your tips in mind .

You were right about my spire, I really didn't have a plan at that point in the game. Now that I think of it, that's a pretty common problem in my games...

I never thought about hotkeying all of my hatches to one key, though, thanks for that tip. I do use hotkeys, but I don't hotkey my queens, which I'm going to try to start doing. I always put my town hall on 5 regardless of what race I'm playing, so I'm going to try to put all of my hatches on 5, and queens from 6-0, while reserving 1-4 for units.

As for the 14 pool 13 hatch, I tried to execute a 14 pool 15 hatch but I messed it up (probably because I was trying to keep my scout alive and forgot to do stuff in my main). I downloaded a build order testing map, so I'm probably going to spend some time in there getting a few build orders down cold.

The roach warren was a bad call on my part... I saw chronoboost on his first gateway, so I wanted to prepare for early zealot pressure, but I was wrong, haha.

Unfortunately I've got a ton of work to do before my college gets off for thanksgiving, so I won't be playing for a while, but I'll start working on this stuff as soon as I start up again .
_________________

Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth. ~Oscar Wilde

[CTangent]

Thank you very much, I appreciate you input . And nitpickiness is good! I need to straighten my play up... I've definitely got a long way to go, and i'll certainly keep your tips in mind .

You were right about my spire, I really didn't have a plan at that point in the game. Now that I think of it, that's a pretty common problem in my games...

I never thought about hotkeying all of my hatches to one key, though, thanks for that tip. I do use hotkeys, but I don't hotkey my queens, which I'm going to try to start doing. I always put my town hall on 5 regardless of what race I'm playing, so I'm going to try to put all of my hatches on 5, and queens from 6-0, while reserving 1-4 for units.

As for the 14 pool 13 hatch, I tried to execute a 14 pool 15 hatch but I messed it up (probably because I was trying to keep my scout alive and forgot to do stuff in my main). I downloaded a build order testing map, so I'm probably going to spend some time in there getting a few build orders down cold.

The roach warren was a bad call on my part... I saw chronoboost on his first gateway, so I wanted to prepare for early zealot pressure, but I was wrong, haha.

Unfortunately I've got a ton of work to do before my college gets off for thanksgiving, so I won't be playing for a while, but I'll start working on this stuff as soon as I start up again .
_________________

Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth. ~Oscar Wilde

[suspectfenster]

Ah, when I asked you before if you used hotkeys, I meant do you use the keyboard to build stuff (I always call them hotkeys which is wrong). You should hardly ever have to press anything in the lower right -- if you don't do this now, try it. It will take a bit to learn but you will be amazed at how much it speeds up your game.

Also feel free to add me. I'm playing random now in team games, so my toss and terran aren't that great but I can play them decently. I don't think you'd have a lot of fun playing me as zerg but I think it might be helpful if I play P or T against you for practice.
_________________

Play TF2? No? What the hell is wrong with you.

[suspectfenster]

Ah, when I asked you before if you used hotkeys, I meant do you use the keyboard to build stuff (I always call them hotkeys which is wrong). You should hardly ever have to press anything in the lower right -- if you don't do this now, try it. It will take a bit to learn but you will be amazed at how much it speeds up your game.

Also feel free to add me. I'm playing random now in team games, so my toss and terran aren't that great but I can play them decently. I don't think you'd have a lot of fun playing me as zerg but I think it might be helpful if I play P or T against you for practice.
_________________

Play TF2? No? What the hell is wrong with you.

[suspectfenster]

Great game I played with somebody last night. Thought I'd share...I don't play T and this was very much a for-fun build so it's terrible macro-wise. lol

http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/106885-2v2-terran-protoss-arid-wastes
_________________

Play TF2? No? What the hell is wrong with you.

[suspectfenster]

Great game I played with somebody last night. Thought I'd share...I don't play T and this was very much a for-fun build so it's terrible macro-wise. lol

http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/106885-2v2-terran-protoss-arid-wastes
_________________

Play TF2? No? What the hell is wrong with you.

[suspectfenster]

Can't let this thread die..

So GSL3 has started, and there have been some absolutely epic games so far. For those that are not subscribed to gomtv but love watching SC -- I will plug it here. I highly recommend it, Tasteless and Artosis are hands down the best english casting team on the planet and the level of play is just insane. Lots of SC1 legends are there, including Boxer, NaDa, and July, plus some new players which are making waves.

Here's a great series between Clide and Leenock: game 3 is probably one of the best games I've ever seen. These guys are nuts.

http://www.gomtv.net/2010gslopens3/vod/1372

If you watch the first game, actually skip until about 25 minutes in, as there were technical difficulties and they had to restart.


In other news, I got to diamond in 3v3 and now going for 4v4. Love playing random, though I get absolutely smashed in 1v1 if I played T or P. All I ever do stalker/colossus or marine/tank/viking.
_________________

Play TF2? No? What the hell is wrong with you.

[suspectfenster]

Can't let this thread die..

So GSL3 has started, and there have been some absolutely epic games so far. For those that are not subscribed to gomtv but love watching SC -- I will plug it here. I highly recommend it, Tasteless and Artosis are hands down the best english casting team on the planet and the level of play is just insane. Lots of SC1 legends are there, including Boxer, NaDa, and July, plus some new players which are making waves.

Here's a great series between Clide and Leenock: game 3 is probably one of the best games I've ever seen. These guys are nuts.

http://www.gomtv.net/2010gslopens3/vod/1372

If you watch the first game, actually skip until about 25 minutes in, as there were technical difficulties and they had to restart.


In other news, I got to diamond in 3v3 and now going for 4v4. Love playing random, though I get absolutely smashed in 1v1 if I played T or P. All I ever do stalker/colossus or marine/tank/viking.
_________________

Play TF2? No? What the hell is wrong with you.

[CTangent]

Yeah, I've enjoyed watching a few GSL3 games and they've been great so far... although I'm usually asleep when the live shows happen, unfortunately.

I'm on the verge of quitting Starcraft, I think. I'm just flat out not getting any better no matter how hard I work at it and it's just not fun anymore. I just lost a game to a player who transitioned from a failed cannon rush to dark templar and I was helpless to stop it. I know that I should have gotten an observer but it's just another thing that I overlooked. Maybe this just isn't my game, haha.

I love RTS games, but I've always sucked at them. I had hoped SC2 would be better, but obviously I still suck at them...
_________________

Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth. ~Oscar Wilde

[CTangent]

Yeah, I've enjoyed watching a few GSL3 games and they've been great so far... although I'm usually asleep when the live shows happen, unfortunately.

I'm on the verge of quitting Starcraft, I think. I'm just flat out not getting any better no matter how hard I work at it and it's just not fun anymore. I just lost a game to a player who transitioned from a failed cannon rush to dark templar and I was helpless to stop it. I know that I should have gotten an observer but it's just another thing that I overlooked. Maybe this just isn't my game, haha.

I love RTS games, but I've always sucked at them. I had hoped SC2 would be better, but obviously I still suck at them...
_________________

Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth. ~Oscar Wilde

[Unpur3]

Jinro getting smashed by MC was a massive suprise to me. I didn't think MC was that much better, but there you go. Either way Jinro was a great representative for Team Liquid and all Foreigners really.

As for me, I'm hoping I'm getting near to a promotion to Gold. I'd say 8 out of my last 10 games have been against favoured oponents and I've finally got over the hump I had a few weeks ago where I couldn't win with anything that I did and now I'm starting to actually get some decent macro skills going instead of just being sloppy.

If anyone at all wants a pratice partner feel free to add me, I don't really care what kind of skill level your at I just fancy playing more.
_________________

"It is only after we loose everything, that we are free to do anything."

[Unpur3]

Jinro getting smashed by MC was a massive suprise to me. I didn't think MC was that much better, but there you go. Either way Jinro was a great representative for Team Liquid and all Foreigners really.

As for me, I'm hoping I'm getting near to a promotion to Gold. I'd say 8 out of my last 10 games have been against favoured oponents and I've finally got over the hump I had a few weeks ago where I couldn't win with anything that I did and now I'm starting to actually get some decent macro skills going instead of just being sloppy.

If anyone at all wants a pratice partner feel free to add me, I don't really care what kind of skill level your at I just fancy playing more.
_________________

"It is only after we loose everything, that we are free to do anything."

[suspectfenster]

[suspectfenster]

[Adsee]

Well, unsurprisingly, MC just completely wrecked Rain in the GSL. His play is amazing.
_________________

]

[Adsee]

Well, unsurprisingly, MC just completely wrecked Rain in the GSL. His play is amazing.
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]