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Eastwinn 
Joined: 12 Jul 2007
Posts: 2853
Location: Anne Arundel County, Maryland
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 Posted: Thu Apr 21, 2011 10:23 pm Post subject: |
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Yewb: Can you think of one that's more dangerous?
Overdose will not increase because they occur from improper regulation. Users do not know just how much they are injecting because there's no dosage written on the side of the package to go by.
Hailz: I disagree, but I won't argue you. Instead, I'll point out that opiates in a pure form are actually incredibly safe. Heroin is no exception.
Twang: Decriminalization will only barely help the heroin situation.
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As Ellie Draws - surreal sketches and characters.
| John Cage wrote: | | The first question I ask myself when something doesn't seem to be beautiful is why do I think it's not beautiful. And very shortly you discover that there is no reason. |
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Pas26
Joined: 04 Oct 2008
Posts: 3664
Location: Québec, Canada
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DESMO56
Joined: 25 Mar 2008
Posts: 539
Location: Lethbridge,Alberta, Canada
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| Posted: Fri Apr 22, 2011 12:52 am Post subject: |
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| Twang wrote: | You're all forgetting the alternative to straight-up legalization: decriminalization. That sounds like a good answer to the question of hard drugs and their legal status.
Marijuana is the only drug I feel should be completely legal. All other (currently non-legal) ones should be decriminalized. Heroin, coke, meth, ecstasy, LSD, shrooms, mescaline, DMT, etc. Should all be decriminalized. That removes the reluctancy to get help when needed, but still doesn't go all-out. Traffickers, dealers, and the like would still be criminals, while us harmless users and abusers are free to get stoned/trip balls/pay a visit to Noddingham/stay up for 4 days, get thin, steal stereo equipment, and lose your teeth in peace. |
thats not harmless, id be pissed if some junkie took my stereo stuff, but i agree with everything else completely
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| PiemanLK wrote: | | Anthony8 wrote: | | Let's stop trolling now |
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Yewb
Joined: 10 Jan 2008
Posts: 3020
Location: Plymouth, UK
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| Posted: Fri Apr 22, 2011 12:53 am Post subject: |
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| Eastwinn wrote: | Yewb: Can you think of one that's more dangerous?
Overdose will not increase because they occur from improper regulation. Users do not know just how much they are injecting because there's no dosage written on the side of the package to go by.
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In simple terms of LD50/ED50, yeah, there are a lot. Heroin, for example, is one. Not sure I can think of a common recreational drug with a lower LD50/ED50 than heroin, though. Care to give me one?
I know several people who take six or eight paracetamol tabs at a time when the dosage instructions clearly say two. Paracetamol overdose is an extremely nasty and unfortunately common way to die. Why are you assuming people will start reading the label with heroin?
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| expertwin wrote: | | ShadoWolf wrote: | | expertwin wrote: | | I just want to, you know, get my name out there. BTW, it updates every Thursday, Friday, and Saturday. Was just the first two, decided to do Saturdays as well. |
Serious advice now: No-one likes indecision in their work, so find what you like that you're even remotely good at, and stick with it. Don't flit from one thing to another, because that just smacks of a large lack of determination and drive. And people don't like you for that, and won't remember you for it. I mean, I get that you have a plucky spirit and a willingness to try new things, but there's a limit, man. |
I might knock it down to just Thursday and Friday. |
| JOE2210 wrote: | | Leave me alone, I have been drinking and your made up words mean nothing to me. |
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Eastwinn
Joined: 12 Jul 2007
Posts: 2853
Location: Anne Arundel County, Maryland
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| Posted: Fri Apr 22, 2011 3:17 am Post subject: |
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| Yewb wrote: | In simple terms of LD50/ED50, yeah, there are a lot. Heroin, for example, is one. Not sure I can think of a common recreational drug with a lower LD50/ED50 than heroin, though. Care to give me one?
I know several people who take six or eight paracetamol tabs at a time when the dosage instructions clearly say two. Paracetamol overdose is an extremely nasty and unfortunately common way to die. Why are you assuming people will start reading the label with heroin? |
Not in terms of safety ratio, just in general. Think about how it affects the body rather than just how easy it is to overdose -- that's what I mean. I would possibly put nicotine above alcohol as far as damage goes. Of course, I'm talking about massive binge drinking, not a glass of wine every night. As a society we recognize an ability to use alcohol responsibly, but not other drugs. Heroin can be used responsibly, but the market doesn't allow for it.
Oh and they won't need to read the label to know how much to do (most people don't want to be in a massive heroin stupor for three hours, let alone overdose), but they'll be able to read the label to see just how much heroin the product contains. Users can't do that now, and that's the problem. My last post was hard to understand, sorry. I admit, I was high and in a rush to finish it so I could lay in my bed and stare at the ceiling 
A dimebag of smack from one dealer might contain 50% pure heroin, and a dimebag from another dealer might contain higher, even 90% pure heroin. It's so inconsistent, and this is where mistakes happen. Also, add to that the fact that most* heroin overdoses occur while under the influence of another drug. Better safety education would help a lot with that. In our current drug education programs, they're too busy telling us not to do heroin than to mention that if we do, we should keep it far far away from cocaine and alcohol.
*Obvious exaggeration, don't feel like looking up the exact number.
The problem with paracetamol is that people severely underestimate it. This won't happen with heroin. Everyone knows that heroin is serious business. Since heroin comes in inconsistent amounts, it's impossible to track down just how much street heroin is needed to overdose. If heroin were sold pure, this would be easy. Oh, and paracetamol is dumb anyway. Ibuprofen all the way.
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As Ellie Draws - surreal sketches and characters.
| John Cage wrote: | | The first question I ask myself when something doesn't seem to be beautiful is why do I think it's not beautiful. And very shortly you discover that there is no reason. |
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MOPP
Joined: 22 Oct 2007
Posts: 193
Location: Aberdeen, Scotland
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| Posted: Fri Apr 22, 2011 7:05 am Post subject: |
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| Eastwinn wrote: | | Overdose will not increase because they occur from improper regulation. Users do not know just how much they are injecting because there's no dosage written on the side of the package to go by. |
Yeah, and people get really drunk because they dont know the % of alcohol in the drink.
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| Mizzles240 wrote: | | beberle is a pretty cool guy, he pwnz ttfaf and doesnt afraid of anything |
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Yewb
Joined: 10 Jan 2008
Posts: 3020
Location: Plymouth, UK
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| Posted: Fri Apr 22, 2011 7:28 am Post subject: |
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To be fair, Eastwinn's got a really good point there - the vast majority of heroin overdoses only happen because the dosage is incredibly inconsistent. To overstretch an already tenuous analogy, I'd rather take paracetamol in small tablets that are within ~5% of each other in dosage terms than have to buy it from some random guy and take the risk that two tabs has enough to puree my liver.
Most people get hangovers in their head or stomach, but mine today is 100% in my mind, so I'll be staying away from debate threads for a while 
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| expertwin wrote: | | ShadoWolf wrote: | | expertwin wrote: | | I just want to, you know, get my name out there. BTW, it updates every Thursday, Friday, and Saturday. Was just the first two, decided to do Saturdays as well. |
Serious advice now: No-one likes indecision in their work, so find what you like that you're even remotely good at, and stick with it. Don't flit from one thing to another, because that just smacks of a large lack of determination and drive. And people don't like you for that, and won't remember you for it. I mean, I get that you have a plucky spirit and a willingness to try new things, but there's a limit, man. |
I might knock it down to just Thursday and Friday. |
| JOE2210 wrote: | | Leave me alone, I have been drinking and your made up words mean nothing to me. |
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Eastwinn
Joined: 12 Jul 2007
Posts: 2853
Location: Anne Arundel County, Maryland
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| Posted: Fri Apr 22, 2011 2:41 pm Post subject: |
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| MOPP wrote: | | Eastwinn wrote: | | Overdose will not increase because they occur from improper regulation. Users do not know just how much they are injecting because there's no dosage written on the side of the package to go by. |
Yeah, and people get really drunk because they dont know the % of alcohol in the drink. |
Heroin, and opiates in general, have an interesting property. In animal studies, and rare human studies, subjects typically find a stable dose of heroin rather than constantly increasing it. While people may be constantly looking to get more drunk, rarely does this occur with heroin. There is a point that's too high, and a points that's not enough, and it doesn't appear to change.
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As Ellie Draws - surreal sketches and characters.
| John Cage wrote: | | The first question I ask myself when something doesn't seem to be beautiful is why do I think it's not beautiful. And very shortly you discover that there is no reason. |
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Twang
Joined: 05 Aug 2007
Posts: 2848
Location: The Frost Giant's Cavern
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| Posted: Sat Apr 23, 2011 12:04 am Post subject: |
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| Eastwinn wrote: | | Not in terms of safety ratio, just in general. Think about how it affects the body rather than just how easy it is to overdose -- that's what I mean. |
I'd say meth has a much worse effect on the body than alcohol, nicotine, and really any other common drug. And crack. Crack and meth are like two peas in a pod. A horrific, soul-crushing, life-ruining pod.
They also have similar effects on society. There's a reason meth is sometimes called "crack for crackers." |
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sadied0g 
Joined: 18 Jul 2007
Posts: 716
Location: Fair Oaks, California
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| Posted: Sat Apr 23, 2011 1:02 am Post subject: |
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| Hobo111 wrote: | 
See that? Cannabis (A.K.A. Marijuana.) is about a 1.5 in dependence and a 1 in harm. Now look at Heroin, which is pretty much off the charts. |
Just out of curiosity (assuming this chart is at least for the most part correct) what is the main reasoning behind keeping ecstasy and LSD illegal? They have much less cause of dependence rating that Alcohol or Tobacco, AND less physical harm than both of those legal drugs. I'm just surprised that nearly all the anti-drug campaigns at school were all "Say no to pot, ecstasy, LSD, meth and cigarettes" and I pretty much never heard the dangers of herioin. Until looking into it a little more, I used to think it was about equally dangerous as LSD; which is obviously not even close to true.
The biggest reason ecstasy is dangerous, is just because you never know what shit the people who make it might have put in it (correct me if I'm wrong, that's what I've come to understand after reading a little about it) If pure MDMA was legalized, I'd love to have a little bit from time to time, knowing that there wasn't a chance of getting meth or some other shit mixed in with it.
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Eastwinn
Joined: 12 Jul 2007
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Location: Anne Arundel County, Maryland
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Yewb
Joined: 10 Jan 2008
Posts: 3020
Location: Plymouth, UK
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| Posted: Sat Apr 23, 2011 11:12 am Post subject: |
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But if it were legal, there would be absolutely no guarantee that the people using it would be mentally healthy, no? Not that there is at the moment either, obviously, but then the government isn't condoning heroin use at the moment.
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| expertwin wrote: | | ShadoWolf wrote: | | expertwin wrote: | | I just want to, you know, get my name out there. BTW, it updates every Thursday, Friday, and Saturday. Was just the first two, decided to do Saturdays as well. |
Serious advice now: No-one likes indecision in their work, so find what you like that you're even remotely good at, and stick with it. Don't flit from one thing to another, because that just smacks of a large lack of determination and drive. And people don't like you for that, and won't remember you for it. I mean, I get that you have a plucky spirit and a willingness to try new things, but there's a limit, man. |
I might knock it down to just Thursday and Friday. |
| JOE2210 wrote: | | Leave me alone, I have been drinking and your made up words mean nothing to me. |
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Eastwinn
Joined: 12 Jul 2007
Posts: 2853
Location: Anne Arundel County, Maryland
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| Posted: Sat Apr 23, 2011 3:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Yewb wrote: | | But if it were legal, there would be absolutely no guarantee that the people using it would be mentally healthy, no? Not that there is at the moment either, obviously, but then the government isn't condoning heroin use at the moment. |
Yeah, that was just a quick aside. Unfortunately, yes, some people will get into heroin that wouldn't have otherwise. But with prohibition gone, it won't be as big of a deal and we'll be able to help them when/if they get addicted.
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As Ellie Draws - surreal sketches and characters.
| John Cage wrote: | | The first question I ask myself when something doesn't seem to be beautiful is why do I think it's not beautiful. And very shortly you discover that there is no reason. |
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fcedyourmom
Joined: 20 Mar 2008
Posts: 1008
Location: Zebulon, NC
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| Posted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 11:34 pm Post subject: |
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double post.
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Last edited by fcedyourmom on Mon Apr 25, 2011 11:48 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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fcedyourmom
Joined: 20 Mar 2008
Posts: 1008
Location: Zebulon, NC
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| Posted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 11:47 pm Post subject: |
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| MOPP wrote: | | Eastwinn wrote: | | So... how would you all feel about heroin being legal? |
Haha, I'd like to see someone come up with a logical postive for smack. |
First of all, the biggest problem with illicit drug use is the profits criminals make with large scale drug operations.
(see:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pablo_Escobar) The only effective way to limit illicit trade is through legalization and regulation. | MOPP wrote: | | A lot of addicts are being weaned off heroin either in prison, or as a condition for leaving prison. 90% will be in prison as a result of the habit. What is legalizing it going to do? |
How about 18%(http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/dcf/duc.cfm), try doing research before spewing anti drug propaganda. At any rate, I think its ridiculous that we imprison people for doing something that causes crimes when misused. Also, the dangers of most drugs, especially heroin, would be significantly reduced by legalization and regulation. (http://www.doctordeluca.com/Library/L&ID/L&ID-12-ODmystery.htm) Legalization would also make rehabilitation easier, since they wouldn't be forced into prison with violent criminals where drugs are just as easy to come by. Though no civilized country has legalized any "hard" drugs such as heroin, Portugal has decriminalized all drug use, and has had overwhelmingly positive results since doing so. (http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=portugal-drug-decriminalization)
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| strikebowler585 wrote: | | GH3 is looser than a whale's vagina |
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