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Naruto42
Joined: 13 Dec 2008 Posts: 1289
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Posted: Sun Sep 11, 2016 1:56 am Post subject: Slider notes explained |
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So I decided to make a guide to sliders to explain it in the clearest way possible.
This is a guide that needs tons of improvements, and I will incorporate any kind of feedback as best as I can.
Also please correct me if I'm wrong, providing if possible some kind of proof so mistakes are actually fixed.
Thanks to Undead for explaining clearly some problematic patterns.
What it is
Notes that can be hit without strumming or hitting the previous note
How it works
The game wants to register a note when you fret it.
So if you fret a note while in the timing window of an actual note, it will be hit, that's good right ?
Well no, because it will skip all previous notes that haven't been hit yet.
This is a problem because this note skip breaks the combo and can happen before the end of the timing window of the skipped note, unlike with HOPOs (because it actually requires that the previous note was hit).
Examples:
Say there is , you press R within both notes' timing windows, so you miss Y and hit R, combo breaker
Now say there's a G before. Well there is , you press G and R, you hit G, miss Y, hit R. Break combo but hit R and start a new combo.
So if you want to play to hit , you can miss. Because the first R you press and hit makes you drop the Y (although ONLY if you pressed R within the timing window of the actual R note)
Some problematic patterns (different notes' timing window overlap)
1. , playing (playing ascending trips as zigs) can skip the second G
2. , playing (playing descending trips as zigs) can skip the second Y (see "How it works")
3. , if you play (hit G before releasing R) then the chord will register the second R, skipping G. This can happen with sweeps, although anchoring should avoid entirely the problem.
4. , if you play (hit R before releasing G) then the chord will register the second R, skipping Y.
Some problematic patterns (same notes' timing window overlap) NEEDS CONFIRMATION
Anything where there is colour A, then colour B, and back to colour A
4. , playing the 1st R just late enough so it is within second R's timing window can skip both 1st R and G. This pattern includes stuff like
5. , same than above basically.
Both of these problems can be combined into zigs of all sizes like size 5 or size 3 , the smaller the size, the lower the number of "safe" slider notes.
Enjoy slider trills (basically smallest zigs: size 2). Every note can be skipped by the next one of the same colour. Every. Damn. Note.
Theory
Here's a little drawing, with GRYRG notes and their timing window.
The red part is where timing windows overlap.
|-G-||-G-|
..|-R-|
......|-R-|
....|-Y-|
Or this one, if you prefer reds on the same line:
|-G-||-G-|
..|-R||R-|
....|-Y-|
There are 3 ways that the game can handle this, one of them being implemented in the actual engine:
1. Game always registers the earliest one
2. Game registers the one it is the closest to (aka closest to the center of the timing window)
3. Game always registers the latest one
I would put my bet on 2nd or 3rd option, although 1st option isn't proven wrong I think. Anyway, for 2. and 3, the game might register the wrong note if you are in the red zone, so playing early avoids the dilemma for the engine.
How to FC sliders (theoretical way because hard)
Play every note before next note's timing window starts. No window overlap, no slider bug.
Alternative: do not fret a colour within timing window of an actual note of this colour --if you don't want to play it-- (eg. don't ghost R within an actual R note's timing window if you're only sliding to Y).
Also do this for same colour notes (eg. for YRYR pattern, be sure to fret the first Y before the second Y's timing window starts. Oh and you have to do the same for the 2 R).
How to FC sliders (practical way)
- Play early (important)
Playing early solves all problems really, because if you hit notes before timing window overlaps, sliders work fine. But it requires you to play every slider before the next note's timing window starts, which is increasingly difficult with NPS.
Back to , if you play but you hit the first R really early, before the timing window of the actual R note starts, then it can't register it (and Y isn't skipped)
- Don't ghost (sometimes important)
Not ghosting is really case-to-case as for its usefulness. You can ghost as many notes as you want, as long as you don't do it in the timing window of an actual note eg, for a pattern, you can ghost 1000 Y and it will work.
But if there is a and you press R while it is in the actual R note's timing window, it will skip Y.
- Anchor
Not very important except if you sometimes fret chords when sweeping and not anchoring (see "Some problematic patterns")
Why did they fuck this shit up (aka why it actually makes some sense)
This implementation actually works 100% until there are timing window overlaps, so they probably didn't test enough cases with fast notes.
The slider idea was focused on helping the player start a new streak after a miss, but because it was implemented disregarding if the player was already on a streak, it introduced a new way of breaking the streak, woops.
How it should have been done (aka dreams)
If there is a streak going on for the player, don't allow registering any note other than the next one (basically turning into HOPOs if there is a streak)
Extra: But a slider and a strummed note close to each other doesn't work
In GH3, with a strummed note and a hopo, you can actually strum 3 times and sometimes it will not break your combo.
In GH:M, Welcome Home (Sanitarium)'s strumming can be overstrummed (extra R) without breaking combo.
So this shit is a different problem that shouldn't be discussed here, because this is a strum bug not only with sliders IMO. _________________
Last edited by Naruto42 on Mon Sep 12, 2016 9:08 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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UndeadFil13QC
Joined: 12 Nov 2007 Posts: 3386 Location: Montreal, QC, Canada
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Posted: Sun Sep 11, 2016 7:20 am Post subject: Re: Slider notes explained |
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Naruto42 wrote: | 3. , if you play (hit G before releasing R) then the chord will register the second R, skipping G. This can happen with sweeps, although anchoring should avoid entirely the problem. |
Same thing happens when you have to play , and release the G while holding the R, if the second R is within the timing window. I has happened to me a lot in TTFAF's Synth Death section in GHSH, where I released the yellow and it skipped the orange in the part. Same goes for a few sections of Play With Me, and sliding index from green to red AND anchoring red/yellow/blue as much as possible seems to do the trick.
I don't think the part you mentioned about having two reds within the timing window is true. I'm pretty sure the reason you would miss there is because you hit the first red too late. I could be wrong though, but I don't think I have ever experienced that kind of problem.
Lastly, trills that start on the top note, such as (Stillborn solo, SAF tapping part, etc.), are a lot more annoying than those that go, because you have to make sure you release blue before pressing yellow, otherwise you skip the first yellow.
Great guide so far, more people should read it _________________
ULTIMATE GOAL: FC Im The One on GH: Van Halen Expert Guitar
Solo 2A FC Count: 39 (Best runs: many -1s, three outro chokes and two 100% overstrums!)
Side goals: GH Expert Vocals Full Series FC [4/8] | Rock Band Expert Bass Full Series FC [8/9] | COVID Vaccine & Booster 100% FC [4/4]
47| 64| 30| 70| 41| 86| 49| 48| 85| 46| 93| 42 ( 10| 65| 10)
Full Series Total: 701/702 ( 786/787) |
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ThunderShade
Joined: 12 Jun 2008 Posts: 350 Location: Scotland
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Posted: Sun Sep 11, 2016 9:16 am Post subject: |
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Thanks, this will come in very helpful _________________
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ThunderShade
Joined: 12 Jun 2008 Posts: 350 Location: Scotland
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Posted: Mon Sep 12, 2016 11:19 am Post subject: |
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A suggestion: if we want to play slide notes early then maybe it would help to play with some lag, say 10ms or so? Also, is this only a problem for pre-GH5 games or is it an issue right up to WoR?
Also, on the two reds overlapping issue, one should note that for this to even theoretically be an issue one would have to be playing at over 18 nps. I'm not sure this comes up often but a reasonable test would be to do a quick 24 nps and try to hit the first red on time. If you can do it, then the theory is wrong. If you can't, then it's right. For an example already in the game, there's the first orange of Satch Boogie solo D. _________________
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Naruto42
Joined: 13 Dec 2008 Posts: 1289
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Posted: Mon Sep 12, 2016 9:28 pm Post subject: |
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UndeadFil13QC wrote: | Same thing happens when you have to play , and release the G while holding the R, if the second R is within the timing window. |
Added, thx!
UndeadFil13QC wrote: | Same goes for a few sections of Play With Me, and sliding index from green to red AND anchoring red/yellow/blue as much as possible seems to do the trick. |
That's exactly how I play it lol. I anchor everything but green. Back in 2011 I even anchored green xD
UndeadFil13QC wrote: | Lastly, trills that start on the top note, such as (Stillborn solo, SAF tapping part, etc.), are a lot more annoying than those that go, because you have to make sure you release blue before pressing yellow, otherwise you skip the first yellow. |
I've never had this problem I believe (or I didn't notice), in most cases I try to press and hold Y before 1st B. If I can't, then I just strum B and it works fine as well.
UndeadFil13QC wrote: | Great guide so far, more people should read it |
ThunderShade wrote: | Thanks, this will come in very helpful |
I'm glad if it helps
ThunderShade wrote: | A suggestion: if we want to play slide notes early then maybe it would help to play with some lag, say 10ms or so? Also, is this only a problem for pre-GH5 games or is it an issue right up to WoR? |
Maybe it could help. I think it could also be confusing though, especially for strummings (ANL...) but I never tried. Someone needs to try and tell us
I don't feel a real difference between sliders on different games tbh :p
UndeadFil13QC wrote: | I don't think the part you mentioned about having two reds within the timing window is true. I'm pretty sure the reason you would miss there is because you hit the first red too late. I could be wrong though, but I don't think I have ever experienced that kind of problem. |
Possible. I've had the feeling more than once that I hit a note in both timing windows and missed it, but I'm gonna test this at some point.
ThunderShade wrote: | For an example already in the game, there's the first orange of Satch Boogie solo D. |
Satch Boogie is a good idea to test this.
ThunderShade wrote: | Also, on the two reds overlapping issue, one should note that for this to even theoretically be an issue one would have to be playing at over 18 nps. |
Hmm how did you calculate 18NPS?
Let's say t is the time between the early edge of the window and late edge.
In order not to overlap, the 2 centers must be at least away by late half of the first window + early half of the 2nd window, so centers must be t-away.
Let's say the window is 2/10 of a second, so you can squeeze 1/10 early and 1/10 late.
Then the notes must be 2/10 of a second apart.
2/10 = 5 NPS
Add an in-between Y, it's now 10 NPS.
18NPS, aka 9NPS without the Y would mean the timing window (full, not half) of a note is 1/9 aka 0.11
This leaves less than 6 hundredth for front-end or back-end. Although I'm pretty bad at guestimating, this still feels too little compared to what squeezing allows. _________________
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ThunderShade
Joined: 12 Jun 2008 Posts: 350 Location: Scotland
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Posted: Mon Sep 12, 2016 9:48 pm Post subject: |
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Naruto42 wrote: | Hmm how did you calculate 18NPS? |
By massively derping and just considering the timing window of one of the reds, hence why I was off by about a factor of 2. _________________
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