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SqueekyClean9
Joined: 18 Oct 2007
Posts: 53
Location: Alexandria, MN
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 Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 11:22 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks you guys for your massive effort at finally splitting these leagues! I finally have some more motivation I need to improve my scores every week. AA-2 and 5th place  , I've got some work to do If I want to make the Trip A's in the future.
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Morgan
Joined: 08 Jan 2007
Posts: 38
Location: Essex, UK
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| Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 12:20 am Post subject: |
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Firstly I'd like also to congratulate Deimos and Barfo for their amazing job .. well done.
A suggestion .. could you perhaps consider moving the BB-1 and BB-2 split a little, ie the last 5 or 10 scoring people from BB-1 into BB-2 as this would give us a fighting chance, and there were a lot of no-scorers in BB-2 anyway last week. |
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ACertainSound
Joined: 08 Jan 2008
Posts: 57
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| Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 1:32 pm Post subject: |
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Morgan i think you're in BB-1 because your scores are low compared to your NoTB score which is pretty high (although it would still only be 5th highest in BB-2).
I guess it's some kind of anti-sandbagging thing, I think the same thing might have happened to me why I was bumped into BB-2 whereas i'd be midtable in B-1, although I don't think my 258k NoTB is unusual, especially seeing as I focused my time into that one and am just naturally better at fretting than other things, have to admit your 319k is a little odd compared with a 144k La Grange 
I don't know previous league history and how much of a problem sandbagging is, but I think it's definitely something for the admins to consider when doing future leagues, because I don't think it encourages the right gameplay, by discouraging people from focusing on their hardest song (the one that is most needed to learn!), in order to just FC the easy songs (and you get more points with the curve system doing that anyways) and not bother with the hard ones.
Barfo thanks for taking it upon yourself to do the split manually, I wasn't aware of the sheer scale of it until the expert leagues started appearing! I hope you'll accept this as feedback and not whining, it's actually a blessing in disguise for me because I'm so busy, especially when the playoffs hit, that any time dedicated to GH would be seriously misspent! |
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Boon 
Joined: 25 Oct 2006
Posts: 269
Location: Paris France
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| Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 3:00 pm Post subject: |
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This discussion gives me an idea :
For future leagues, it may be interesting to split the population not on a regular fashion. A lot of people stop posting score as times pass.
And I think (tell me if I'm wrong) that the better you are, the more regular you are...
So it may be interesting to put more people in lower roster (like Morgan recommended) to accommodate this point.
Moreover, in the lower roster, there is more chance to be a lot of variations and therefore, more chance for people to gain places (If you are in the lower rosters, you may be very good at your favourite song and doing very poorly on another song)
For example, considering the same population (250 person) :
BBB1 : 30
BB1 : 40
BB2 : 40
B1 : 70
B2 : 70
If you want an idea about the repartition of people based on week 1:
20 FCed NfMH (40 person with no score)
60 FCed Miss Murder and WttJ
45 FCed Helicopter
What do you think about this idea ?
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DpOblivion
Joined: 19 Oct 2007
Posts: 324
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| Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 5:20 pm Post subject: |
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Now that the divisions are split up, is there a specific league admin I should PM (I'm in AAA-5), or can I just PM any of them?
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Barfo
Joined: 10 Oct 2006
Posts: 2596
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| Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 6:06 pm Post subject: |
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A couple random responses to some of the recent comments:
| Quote: | | could you perhaps consider moving the BB-1 and BB-2 split a little, ie the last 5 or 10 scoring people from BB-1 into BB-2 as this would give us a fighting chance, and there were a lot of no-scorers in BB-2 anyway last week. |
Normally, i would dismiss this idea out of hand, for the reason that unless i have a traceable numeric error during the assignment process id never move people from the bottom of a division down one (its unfair both to the new bottom denizens of the league they are vacating and the people at the top of the destination division). I count on random distribution of league boundaries to even itself out over several leagues for people, as long as they are not consistently playing below their potential. In this case there is a special extenuating factor in that because the splits were not up for week 2, many people no doubt saw their week 1 result and decided to drop, even though they perhaps would have been very competitive in their eventual division. I have not studied the exact data, but thats what i figure went on. If i had done the split knowing those people were out (and they are not necessarily out, anybody can skip week 2 and submit for weeks 3 and 4), then the boundaries may have been shifted some, I'll look at it to consider the situation, but I do not expect to move anybody.
| Quote: | For future leagues, it may be interesting to split the population not on a regular fashion. A lot of people stop posting score as times pass.
And I think (tell me if I'm wrong) that the better you are, the more regular you are |
Actually, as far as leagues are concerned, people tend to drop out of the highest leagues at a higher rate than the lower league. Part of that is because of the extremely high level of play (and thus time commitment) that is involved particularly at that level. This is especially a problem in AAA-1 where basically people in the bottom third can pretty much say for sure that they have almost no chance of bettering themselves against the top third, and they would have to put in a huge effort just to stand pat (kudos to anybody and everybody on the AAA-1/AAA-2 border who ended up by the math into AAA-1 and finished the whle season. In the case of this season there was a special case that provided a contrary trend, which was that league splits were so late that they were not at all available during seek 2 (normally they owuld be up by monday of the second week), so people who did in the bottom half probably loooked at the resuts and saw their rank in the 600 or 700's or worse and werent very motivated to do well, even though perhaps they ended up finally in a division that maybe would have been very competitive for them. As it is the system i use tends to top load the divisions a little bit, which in normal curcumstance is fine because those are the ones that end up having dropouts the most anyways. (EDIT: Also SH activity or notoriety is not a predictor of league stick-to-it'veness)
| Quote: | I guess it's some kind of anti-sandbagging thing, I think the same thing might have happened to me why I was bumped into BB-2 whereas i'd be midtable in B-1, although I don't think my 258k NoTB is unusual, especially seeing as I focused my time into that one and am just naturally better at fretting than other things, have to admit your 319k is a little odd compared with a 144k La Grange
I don't know previous league history and how much of a problem sandbagging is, but I think it's definitely something for the admins to consider when doing future leagues, because I don't think it encourages the right gameplay, by discouraging people from focusing on their hardest song (the one that is most needed to learn!), in order to just FC the easy songs (and you get more points with the curve system doing that anyways) and not bother with the hard ones. |
Two points come up here. Im not going to give out my overall formula because i do not want enterprising but unethical people to try and 'game' it. I think its a very good formula (though formula is a bit of an overstatement because it still has a large component of human judgement), and after each season's split i take what i learned and apply small teaks to try and improve it for next time. However there are a couple of thigns i can say.
One is that the anti-sandbagging (and by anti-sandbagging, we are also just trying to catch people who legitimately dont play to their potential in week 1, or for whom the week 1 songs are particularly hard for them by random chance, in order to make sure those people are sitll in a division that will challenge them if they were playing up to their potential) parts of the formula do not look only the week 1 scores, basically any score that is on scorehero is under the purview of the system (save for rockband ones, except obviously in the rock band league). So thinking of the cases you are bringin up in terms of specific week 1 scores is a flawed way of trying to make sense of the data available to you. This is the first time i did a B split and though it went solidly, there are a couple of B-specific tweaks to the formula that i will probably apply for S9.
Second, your point about the 'right' gameplay i dont agree with, necessarily. The leagues are sort of gameplay neutral, but from week to week they are very much about balancing your efforts to do well evenly on all four songs in a week, but with an extra bit of reward if you can get a top score. Strategically, its toss up that the best way to do that is to focus on just one song that is 'hard' and try and bring that up a large number of points then thats fine, or if they figure that they need to spend time on the song they can easily FC in order to try and out-squeeze everybody on that one song. Overall, the best strategy is to focus on all songs equally, and make sure you have an equal effort relative to your potential on that song for all songs, with a special bit of extra effort perhas on trying to get #1 on one or two songs if you think that you are particularly advantaged on those. However, if you are at or near the top of one song and in dead last on another, then if you had any additional effort possible at all to put in, its always better to improve your worst score, because chances are even though each rank gain is worth less, its a lot less effort (unless you are completely tapped skill-wise) probably to gain several at once than to kick up one more rnak if you are already in top 5. Of course you never know where your scores rank during the week, so that is part of the challenge of the strategy of it.
EDIT:
| DpOblivion wrote: | | Now that the divisions are split up, is there a specific league admin I should PM (I'm in AAA-5), or can I just PM any of them? |
Im the AAA commisioner.
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Morgan
Joined: 08 Jan 2007
Posts: 38
Location: Essex, UK
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| Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 9:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Well I only get 3 or 4 hours a week to play, normally between 10 and 11 weekdays after the kids are in bed and a bit at weekends, and my fingers don't move too fast so I'm much better at very repetitive or regular beats. I'll stick wherever you put me and keep submitting scores, but make sure you add my last place scores to your hall of fame Barfo! |
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LemonMeringue
Joined: 27 Nov 2007
Posts: 2048
Location: Pennsylvania
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| Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 11:19 pm Post subject: |
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yeah, also AA-2 with shinobi, buckethead, and trooper. in AA-1 i'd be 2nd for radio song, 23rd for prayer (18th now) still 1st for HiC, and 3rd for impulse (2nd now)...
however, general scores are pretty comparable for several leagues near each other, so i have no problem with the league i'm in. i look forward to losing my lead this round lol
great job guys! |
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ShinobiAC
Joined: 04 Dec 2007
Posts: 1065
Location: Raleigh, NC
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| Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 11:54 pm Post subject: |
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| LemonMeringue wrote: | yeah, also AA-2 with shinobi, buckethead, and trooper. in AA-1 i'd be 2nd for radio song, 23rd for prayer (18th now) still 1st for HiC, and 3rd for impulse (2nd now)...
however, general scores are pretty comparable for several leagues near each other, so i have no problem with the league i'm in. i look forward to losing my lead this round lol
great job guys! |
I may not beat your four week total, but you are goin down to china town in the playoffs LemonMeringue, or should I say LAME-onMeringue!! OHooOoooOOoooOoo (yes I went there.)
EDIT: P.S. Buckethead, read your PMs! 
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Duha
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
Posts: 433
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| Posted: Sat Feb 23, 2008 6:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Two points come up here. Im not going to give out my overall formula because i do not want enterprising but unethical people to try and 'game' it. I think its a very good formula (though formula is a bit of an overstatement because it still has a large component of human judgement), and after each season's split i take what i learned and apply small teaks to try and improve it for next time. However there are a couple of thigns i can say.
One is that the anti-sandbagging (and by anti-sandbagging, we are also just trying to catch people who legitimately dont play to their potential in week 1, or for whom the week 1 songs are particularly hard for them by random chance, in order to make sure those people are sitll in a division that will challenge them if they were playing up to their potential) parts of the formula do not look only the week 1 scores, basically any score that is on scorehero is under the purview of the system (save for rockband ones, except obviously in the rock band league). So thinking of the cases you are bringin up in terms of specific week 1 scores is a flawed way of trying to make sense of the data available to you. This is the first time i did a B split and though it went solidly, there are a couple of B-specific tweaks to the formula that i will probably apply for S9. |
what about for people like me if I can FC a song I go for the optimal path so like for sabotage I had just missed one squeeze so I am like 400 off optimal but that is cause I go for the optimal path which really doesn't make it any harder in my opinion. So because of that I was in first in BB-2 in that song. la garange I came very close to FCing this song and also used the optimal star path for this so I ranked pretty good in this. Then if you look at my 3's and 7's and NotB scores am near dead last cause I am really not that good at the game (compared to score hero im terrible at the game) yet. my 3's and 7's and NotB in the next league down would be in the middle of the pack. Is there anything you can implement in you anti sandbagging device for something like that. Im not mad where I am at in the leagues just curious how this problem is dealt with or maybe i am the only one that sucks at the game but when I can FC a song I go for the gold instead of just a regular FC score.
| Quote: | | Second, your point about the 'right' gameplay i dont agree with, necessarily. The leagues are sort of gameplay neutral, but from week to week they are very much about balancing your efforts to do well evenly on all four songs in a week, but with an extra bit of reward if you can get a top score. Strategically, its toss up that the best way to do that is to focus on just one song that is 'hard' and try and bring that up a large number of points then thats fine, or if they figure that they need to spend time on the song they can easily FC in order to try and out-squeeze everybody on that one song. Overall, the best strategy is to focus on all songs equally, and make sure you have an equal effort relative to your potential on that song for all songs, with a special bit of extra effort perhas on trying to get #1 on one or two songs if you think that you are particularly advantaged on those. However, if you are at or near the top of one song and in dead last on another, then if you had any additional effort possible at all to put in, its always better to improve your worst score, because chances are even though each rank gain is worth less, its a lot less effort (unless you are completely tapped skill-wise) probably to gain several at once than to kick up one more rnak if you are already in top 5. Of course you never know where your scores rank during the week, so that is part of the challenge of the strategy of it. |
thankx I was wondering about this cause on songs I can FC I am 100% sure that I can get first if I put more time in to them cause no one squeezes in my league at least the scores ive seen them put up but that may take away from time spent on the harder songs. anyways this helps me a lot because I really wanted to know |
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ShinobiAC
Joined: 04 Dec 2007
Posts: 1065
Location: Raleigh, NC
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| Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2008 12:47 am Post subject: |
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| Duha wrote: | | what about for people like me if I can FC a song I go for the optimal path so like for sabotage I had just missed one squeeze so I am like 400 off optimal but that is cause I go for the optimal path which really doesn't make it any harder in my opinion. So because of that I was in first in BB-2 in that song. la garange I came very close to FCing this song and also used the optimal star path for this so I ranked pretty good in this. Then if you look at my 3's and 7's and NotB scores am near dead last cause I am really not that good at the game (compared to score hero im terrible at the game) yet. my 3's and 7's and NotB in the next league down would be in the middle of the pack. |
So let me get this absolutely straight. You score at the top or near top in 2 songs, and near bottom in 2 songs, which averages out to SMACK DAB in the middle of your division, or what might be seen as a perfect placement.
By your theory, nobody should get a low score for any song in the division they are in. If you still think it's unfair, then explain in a little more detail why you think the data should be interpreted that way.
If you want to place better and get more points, practice songs and get as many points as your skill allows. 4000 points in 3s and 7s would have gotten you 3 extra places. Honestly, leagues are meant to make you get better through encouraging you to improve your scores so the mods have failed that if you are scoring at the top of every song every week. I royally stink at 3s and 7s. I would regularly get my score tripled by my friends. I decided to practice it one day and was able to five star it eventually after getting down all my trouble points. I don't five star it regularly still, but that effort added a lot to my average score. All it takes is a little practice and determination.
If you want to get a top score in all the songs you play, then you can start a rivalry specifically asking for that. Otherwise, good luck!
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MPChedda
Joined: 06 Nov 2007
Posts: 1299
Location: Evansville, IN
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| Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2008 12:51 am Post subject: |
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| ShinobiAC wrote: | | Duha wrote: | | what about for people like me if I can FC a song I go for the optimal path so like for sabotage I had just missed one squeeze so I am like 400 off optimal but that is cause I go for the optimal path which really doesn't make it any harder in my opinion. So because of that I was in first in BB-2 in that song. la garange I came very close to FCing this song and also used the optimal star path for this so I ranked pretty good in this. Then if you look at my 3's and 7's and NotB scores am near dead last cause I am really not that good at the game (compared to score hero im terrible at the game) yet. my 3's and 7's and NotB in the next league down would be in the middle of the pack. |
So let me get this absolutely straight. You score at the top or near top in 2 songs, and near bottom in 2 songs, which averages out to SMACK DAB in the middle of your division, or what might be seen as a perfect placement.
By your theory, nobody should get a low score for any song in the division they are in. If you still think it's unfair, then explain in a little more detail why you think the data should be interpreted that way.
If you want to place better and get more points, practice songs and get as many points as your skill allows. 4000 points in 3s and 7s would have gotten you 3 extra places. Honestly, leagues are meant to make you get better through encouraging you to improve your scores so the mods have failed that if you are scoring at the top of every song every week. I royally stink at 3s and 7s. I would regularly get my score tripled by my friends. I decided to practice it one day and was able to five star it eventually after getting down all my trouble points. I don't five star it regularly still, but that effort added a lot to my average score. All it takes is a little practice and determination.
If you want to get a top score in all the songs you play, then you can start a rivalry specifically asking for that. Otherwise, good luck! |
Well said Shinobi. That's what leagues are all about.
I'm extremely happy that songs like HiC and CoP have been chosen for my division.
For myself, I guess I'm what you could call a really good squeezer, so on the easier songs, I'll score near the top almost every time. However, songs like HiC and CoP force me to spend a lot of time on them in order to improve my score, and thusly, my overall rank. That's what I love about leagues.
I probably would never have spent the time I did on HiC, and won't have spent the time I'm going to on CoP for quite some time if leagues wouldn't have forced me to.
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lionheart62090
Joined: 10 Jul 2007
Posts: 392
Location: Toms River, NJ
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| Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2008 5:53 am Post subject: |
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I have a little question, and I dnt know if it was asked but, how many ppl will make the playoffs in each division?
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Duha
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
Posts: 433
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| Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2008 10:05 am Post subject: |
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| ShinobiAC wrote: | | Duha wrote: | | what about for people like me if I can FC a song I go for the optimal path so like for sabotage I had just missed one squeeze so I am like 400 off optimal but that is cause I go for the optimal path which really doesn't make it any harder in my opinion. So because of that I was in first in BB-2 in that song. la garange I came very close to FCing this song and also used the optimal star path for this so I ranked pretty good in this. Then if you look at my 3's and 7's and NotB scores am near dead last cause I am really not that good at the game (compared to score hero im terrible at the game) yet. my 3's and 7's and NotB in the next league down would be in the middle of the pack. |
So let me get this absolutely straight. You score at the top or near top in 2 songs, and near bottom in 2 songs, which averages out to SMACK DAB in the middle of your division, or what might be seen as a perfect placement.
By your theory, nobody should get a low score for any song in the division they are in. If you still think it's unfair, then explain in a little more detail why you think the data should be interpreted that way.
If you want to place better and get more points, practice songs and get as many points as your skill allows. 4000 points in 3s and 7s would have gotten you 3 extra places. Honestly, leagues are meant to make you get better through encouraging you to improve your scores so the mods have failed that if you are scoring at the top of every song every week. I royally stink at 3s and 7s. I would regularly get my score tripled by my friends. I decided to practice it one day and was able to five star it eventually after getting down all my trouble points. I don't five star it regularly still, but that effort added a lot to my average score. All it takes is a little practice and determination.
If you want to get a top score in all the songs you play, then you can start a rivalry specifically asking for that. Otherwise, good luck! |
You got me all wrong buddy i am far from complaining.
was just wondering how this went cause for play offs if i get stuck with raining blood or one ill get destroyed but if i get closer or metal heavy lady there is a good chance i can beat them. Just cause i do really good on the easy songs and bad on the worse songs doesn't put me skill wise in the middle of the pack. points wise yes but skill wise i belive that makes you ahead of where you should be placed.
anyways its not important. i some how managed to pull out first this week for the round and i have no idea how this happend |
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stroh
Joined: 29 Jan 2008
Posts: 28
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| Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2008 11:58 pm Post subject: |
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| I got freaking screwed and they put me in BBB-1 division with all the professional hard players. I was 7th overall after the first week in B league. Now im almost last in BBB-1. Freaking stupid. |
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