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Total Votes : 57 |
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Barfo
Joined: 10 Oct 2006 Posts: 2596
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Posted: Tue Jan 30, 2007 6:01 pm Post subject: |
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my $0.02 on the various ideas submitted. Keep in mind om only 25% of the decision-making for the commishes, so nothing i say here is gospel.
Yes im pretty sure we will move up and down people on the leagues based on how they did this season. No, this is not decided yet and i doubt we will even fix a specific number per league. The smart way to do it is to use on-the-fly heuristics like rabies did in dividing up A division, and just look for ntural breaks in skill. Also, with four weeks there are going to be a few songs tat got played by multiple divisions at some point (ex: Elephant Bones)
I have big reservations about advertising some songs as a "qualifying" week because frankly I suspect some minority of people will tank that to get placed lower. But for new people for season maybe what you can do is pick 3-4 songs that represent a range of challenge and that were played by leagues A-AAA (preferably more than one each) in season 2. Then you can compare the new scores against he old scores to get an idea of where people belong.
As far as narmalizing against people's individual affinities so taht they dont get an "unlucky" break of songs, that argument is infinitely regressive up to everybody playing all 64 sogns with all possible twists. For purposes of the league, the implicit assumption is that about 4 songs should be a large enough sample size to even out any luck factors mostly. To wit: 8 is too many.
EDIT: one solution would for the first week have all three expert divisions play the exact same 4 songs. And then we divide the 250 or so entries into divisions based on that in the same way rabies did for A this ssn. Same idea as Hylians but its not an extra week, it is the literal first week, with the scores counting fully, etc. I could still see people tanking that, but at least if they do, they start out with a weak week of scores that they have to overcome. Problems with sandbaggers in B and C can pretty much easily be fixed by re-jigging people up based on season 2, i dont expect ot see many more signups for that for ssn 3. _________________
Watching her, these things she said / "Time," she cried "failed to wait, this time"
***
Hush now / Let it go now / I know it's time to go / Time to let this fall / From my hands |
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rabies
Joined: 04 Apr 2006 Posts: 2442 Location: Columbia, Maryland
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Posted: Tue Jan 30, 2007 7:32 pm Post subject: |
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One of the unfortunate side affects of having so many participants with a wide-range of skills, is that even if we qualify people as suggested, or even when we do on the fly heuristics like I did with League A, when you have 20+ people in a division, there is going to be a few who will simply crush the rest. Even in A league right now, across all 3 divisions, there are those who are clearly doing much better than those at the bottom of each division. Why? Do they try harder, practice more? Are they naturally better? Who knows.
When I split league A, there was a pretty clear split in the skill level. Then week 2 scores came in. Guess what? People who were towards the top (or near) of A2 or A3 suddenly showed scores that would have done very well in higher divisions...and vice versa. What happened? Did they get better? Probably not. Did they suddenly try a heck of a lot harder because they now realized they were in the hunt? My vote would be the latter.
Keep up the good work in participating and thinking. The more you guys put into it and participate, the better the league will be. I have a feeling that once we are in the playoffs, the number of newcomers to the league will diminish some. I think we will have mountains of data at the time on who belongs where. However, one of the ideas I had in my head was the same as Barfo's final solution..all expert leagues play the same 4 songs the first week...and we break up the 3 expert leagues based on those results....and make manual adjustments if we see somebody who should normally have placed higher (based on his/her previous results in the league) who may have had a bad week.......and since now 50% of the decision-making has the same idea...its just up to us to convince the other 50%... |
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bmintern
Joined: 16 Jan 2007 Posts: 47
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Posted: Tue Jan 30, 2007 8:30 pm Post subject: |
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njv232 wrote: | I don't mean to bitch or anything, but I guess what I will say will be perceived as just that. C league is very competitive between like 5 guys. I would venture to say at least three of them do not belong in our league. I don't know how we could remedy the problem. I mean you could blow your test to get in a lower league if we made everyone play a song on a certain difficulty. I mean if you wanted to get put in whatever league you wanted you could do it no matter what they would require.
I just get sick of playing knowing I might get 10th, if I am lucky because a lot of players hold back their true ability. What I think might be fun is to automatically move the top 2 from each league up to the next league. like split all the difficulties as they have expert. It would take a while to get people where they belong, but eventually it would be weeks that are decided by 300 points versus 30,000 |
I feel like I should respond to this since I am 4th in League C; it seems like I may be one of the people he is referring to. When I signed up for the C League, I had owned GH2 for two weeks. I still have never played GH1. I do spend 1-3 hours a day playing, however, and I get on the ScoreHero forums to figure out the best Star Power paths through songs. For some of the easier Medium songs, I can get my week's score on the first couple tries. There are others, however, that I may play 15-30 times before I finally get a score I'm satisfied with.
I'm sorry if this is off-topic, but I think that it does bring to light the fact no matter what the skill level or Guitar Hero experience, there will simply be some people who are more dedicated or who have more time, or people who learn quickly and manage to rapidly improve their skills.
I really like Barfo's idea about the first week; I just wish there was some way to apply that to the lower leagues. In the next season, I would really like to see a new league added, if possible. I think there should be a D league which only plays Medium songs, so that true beginners could have nice stage for competition. Then, League C would be modified to be a mix of Medium and Hard songs. I feel like there are a lot of people who are really good at Medium but have a lot of trouble moving up to Hard, and this would be the perfect place for those people.
If this was done, the first week of the season could have a combined League C/D playing the same songs on Medium, and then the top half could be placed in the C league with the bottom going to the D league. Perhaps the lowest players in the B league could be dropped down to the new C league as well, although that would have to involve somehow scaling their first week results so that League C would a nice mix of scores for the first week.
No matter what happens, I really am against a preliminary week measure. Regardless of what measures are used to separate individuals, there will always be certain people who place higher than others, and some near the bottom will end up frustrated. I don't think there is any easy solution for this, and adding a preliminary week will not help that at all. I do like some of the ideas that have come up in this thread though, so I applaud Hylian's efforts at improving things. |
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elx
Joined: 17 Feb 2006 Posts: 1657
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Posted: Tue Jan 30, 2007 11:25 pm Post subject: |
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rabies wrote: | One of the unfortunate side affects of having so many participants with a wide-range of skills, is that even if we qualify people as suggested, or even when we do on the fly heuristics like I did with League A, when you have 20+ people in a division, there is going to be a few who will simply crush the rest. Even in A league right now, across all 3 divisions, there are those who are clearly doing much better than those at the bottom of each division. Why? Do they try harder, practice more? Are they naturally better? Who knows.
When I split league A, there was a pretty clear split in the skill level. Then week 2 scores came in. Guess what? People who were towards the top (or near) of A2 or A3 suddenly showed scores that would have done very well in higher divisions...and vice versa. What happened? Did they get better? Probably not. Did they suddenly try a heck of a lot harder because they now realized they were in the hunt? My vote would be the latter.
Keep up the good work in participating and thinking. The more you guys put into it and participate, the better the league will be. I have a feeling that once we are in the playoffs, the number of newcomers to the league will diminish some. I think we will have mountains of data at the time on who belongs where. However, one of the ideas I had in my head was the same as Barfo's final solution..all expert leagues play the same 4 songs the first week...and we break up the 3 expert leagues based on those results....and make manual adjustments if we see somebody who should normally have placed higher (based on his/her previous results in the league) who may have had a bad week.......and since now 50% of the decision-making has the same idea...its just up to us to convince the other 50%... |
Now you only have to convince the other 25% guys. Everybody glare at Javman until he agrees. |
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Javman158
Joined: 21 Feb 2006 Posts: 640 Location: Fairfax, VA
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Posted: Wed Jan 31, 2007 5:44 am Post subject: |
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elx wrote: | rabies wrote: | One of the unfortunate side affects of having so many participants with a wide-range of skills, is that even if we qualify people as suggested, or even when we do on the fly heuristics like I did with League A, when you have 20+ people in a division, there is going to be a few who will simply crush the rest. Even in A league right now, across all 3 divisions, there are those who are clearly doing much better than those at the bottom of each division. Why? Do they try harder, practice more? Are they naturally better? Who knows.
When I split league A, there was a pretty clear split in the skill level. Then week 2 scores came in. Guess what? People who were towards the top (or near) of A2 or A3 suddenly showed scores that would have done very well in higher divisions...and vice versa. What happened? Did they get better? Probably not. Did they suddenly try a heck of a lot harder because they now realized they were in the hunt? My vote would be the latter.
Keep up the good work in participating and thinking. The more you guys put into it and participate, the better the league will be. I have a feeling that once we are in the playoffs, the number of newcomers to the league will diminish some. I think we will have mountains of data at the time on who belongs where. However, one of the ideas I had in my head was the same as Barfo's final solution..all expert leagues play the same 4 songs the first week...and we break up the 3 expert leagues based on those results....and make manual adjustments if we see somebody who should normally have placed higher (based on his/her previous results in the league) who may have had a bad week.......and since now 50% of the decision-making has the same idea...its just up to us to convince the other 50%... |
Now you only have to convince the other 25% guys. Everybody glare at Javman until he agrees. |
::senses glaring::
::nervously looks around::
...sure, sounds good to me
consider the last 25% convinced, that idea of yours seems to be doing quite well rabies, and if it isn't broke, don't fix it! |
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freakinsweet85
Joined: 31 Jan 2007 Posts: 134
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Posted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 11:17 pm Post subject: |
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when IS season 3 going to be? |
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Barfo
Joined: 10 Oct 2006 Posts: 2596
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Posted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 11:20 pm Post subject: |
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freakinsweet85 wrote: | when IS season 3 going to be? |
After Season 2.
EDIT: but seriously, theres 4 weeks of season 2 (just over one left to go ), and then probably about 2 weeks of playoffs and then probably a week off or so to rejig the league assignments and then we'd start ssn 3 _________________
Watching her, these things she said / "Time," she cried "failed to wait, this time"
***
Hush now / Let it go now / I know it's time to go / Time to let this fall / From my hands |
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eachann
Joined: 09 May 2006 Posts: 1340 Location: Michigan
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Posted: Sat Feb 03, 2007 2:50 am Post subject: |
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I didn't read the whole thread up to here so maybe i shouldn't even post.. it might have already been said but just wanted to throw a quick comment on the OP idea.... like Rabies said, most of the players in season 3 will be players from seasons 1 and 2 and they'll have a good idea of where players will be. But you could do a preliminary for just the new players... of course people wouldn't try as hard knowing that it was just a preliminary round unless they were really hellbent on being in the top league.. but nevertheless it might make a good starting place for new players. |
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bart2k8
Joined: 24 Dec 2006 Posts: 12
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Posted: Sun Feb 04, 2007 4:42 pm Post subject: |
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i guess it aint a terrible idea, my onle suggestion is
NO MIRROR MODE! |
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RocketMan
Joined: 01 Jan 2007 Posts: 1189 Location: Rapid City, SD
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Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 5:38 am Post subject: |
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I had an idea for the bigger leagues (A mainly). Why not run them similar to the way many sports are ran?
1. Just have signups...don't put into any particular order.
2. Put everyone into X(4?) divisions in no paticular order. Don't seperate pending ability...its all luck of the draw, where you get placed is where you get placed!!! You may get all the best in one division...or they may be broken up.
3. Have Saturday(s) as a cutoff for registering for the following week. If you are not in by Saturday...you don't play the next weeks songs. Late entries are added to the divisions, so that the divisions get built up evenly...although randomly.
4. When it comes time for the playoffs...you take X(3-4?) number of the people from the top of each division, then you combine the rest of the League and take another X(3-4?) people in as 'wildcards'...just so that if they got into a really good/hard division they could still make it in.
5. Continue with playoffs in the way they are already set up. You wouldn't have an A1, A2, etc. Winner...you would just have an "A League Winner"
6. The topps (winners...maybe more) of each League gets bumped up to the next league. If the bumped up people just absolutely do not do well playing the harder songs (mainly thinking of Med-Hard or Hard-Expert) then the Following season maybe they could go back...or I dunno, hadn't really thought of that!!! Probably by then there could be something figured out for the 'in-between' people.
I think that would solve alot of the "problems" with saying (Name...or whatever) shouldn't be in this League/Division...its all luck of the draw, or they will be out next season.
Sorry if this is already the idea...just wanted to get it down before I forgot it. _________________
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Sakst82
Joined: 06 Nov 2006 Posts: 681 Location: Beaver Falls, PA
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Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 10:18 am Post subject: |
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I would suggest... If you are going to have all expert players play the same 4 songs week 1... then divide them up from there. Please try to make sure there is a wide variety of songs... not 4 EZ FCs but not 4 face melters. Some people are better than some at others. I like to perfect the "easy" songs but I suck at the hard songs. So if you pick 4 hard songs first week im gonna get placed lower than I should, but if you pick 4 "easy" songs I'm gonna place higher than I should. I know the songs are supposed to be random but maybe just for the first week make sure theres a mix _________________
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Emptyeye
Joined: 30 Dec 2006 Posts: 828
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Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 1:08 pm Post subject: |
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Sakst82 wrote: | I would suggest... If you are going to have all expert players play the same 4 songs week 1... then divide them up from there. Please try to make sure there is a wide variety of songs...[...]I know the songs are supposed to be random but maybe just for the first week make sure theres a mix |
I completely agree with this. With four songs, you should be able to get a good mix of easy and hard stuff, which on the overall should do a pretty good job of dividing the competition appropriately (My main concern with using just one song for the purpose). _________________
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