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TheMagician
Joined: 05 Mar 2007
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Ticapapel
Joined: 20 Aug 2007
Posts: 390
Location: Brazil
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 Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2008 5:55 pm Post subject: |
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Yeah, it's possible... Gamezelda and other people did when debr asked for a video.
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Samson007
Joined: 04 Oct 2006
Posts: 1709
Location: Green Bay, Wisconsin
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| Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2008 6:04 pm Post subject: |
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Its because in the GH2 engine you can abuse the timing window by hitting the note early (much the way you can in GH3) but in GH2 you can start whammying early too, and it gives you the SP for the early whammy. As opposed to GH3 where you don't get any extra SP for early whammying.
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TheMagician
Joined: 05 Mar 2007
Posts: 1164
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| Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2008 6:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Samson007 wrote: | | Its because in the GH2 engine you can abuse the timing window by hitting the note early (much the way you can in GH3) but in GH2 you can start whammying early too, and it gives you the SP for the early whammy. As opposed to GH3 where you don't get any extra SP for early whammying. |
I know, but I thought the limit was 7.5 beats of SP?
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Cdw01
Joined: 23 Dec 2006
Posts: 923
Location: New York
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| Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2008 7:08 pm Post subject: |
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The exact whammy needed for a 1/2 bar of star power is ~7.353. The real whammy sp rate is 3.4%, compared to the 3 1/3% value currently being used in debr's charts. He had them right originally but got too many complaints about things being "impossible", so we're stuck with it for now. It's on his list, but not a top priority. However, he's working on a separate site with the right value, I think.
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swordchucks4life
Joined: 04 Nov 2007
Posts: 600
Location: Oregon
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| Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2008 7:09 pm Post subject: |
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but I remember Debr stating somewhere that there's some "glitch" (for lack of a better word, it's not really a glitch, because it always happens, and I think in more than one song) in the 80's version that lets you get star power from phrases with less than 7.5 beats of whammy.
I think it says in his thread (wherever that is), that he's working on updating his program to include that.
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debr5836
Joined: 11 Apr 2007
Posts: 1159
Location: Fort Collins, CO
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| Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2008 11:09 pm Post subject: |
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http://www.scorehero.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=18650
Note "The Warrior" phrase is listed as a known deficiency in my charts. I wouldn't say I'm actively working on plugging this hole; I'm just calling this out as a known deficiency.
The 7.353 vs. 7.500 is a matter of significant debate. The 7.353 is based on a 3.4 number in a DTB file (this is cdw01's evidence of this number being obviously right), but empirically it doesn't reconcile with the apparent difficulty required to get several of the borderline activations (e.g. PBFO last phrase, the raw dog squeeze, etc.). One would think that if 7.353 were the right number, these borderline phrases would be much easier to get than they seem to be.
Cdw01 seems happy with the 7.353 charts on GH1. I'm debating releasing two versions of the charts -- one with the 7.353 number and one with the 7.500 number and then both camps of people will be happy.
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Cdw01
Joined: 23 Dec 2006
Posts: 923
Location: New York
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| Posted: Sun Mar 23, 2008 12:49 am Post subject: |
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| debr5836 wrote: | | The 7.353 vs. 7.500 is a matter of significant debate. The 7.353 is based on a 3.4 number in a DTB file (this is cdw01's evidence of this number being obviously right), but empirically it doesn't reconcile with the apparent difficulty required to get several of the borderline activations (e.g. PBFO last phrase, the raw dog squeeze, etc.). One would think that if 7.353 were the right number, these borderline phrases would be much easier to get than they seem to be. |
Psychobilly Freakout is hard as hell regardless. .17 extra beats of whammy assuming you're perfect over 8 notes. The "impossible" Yes We Can double squeeze on the final activation has .021 extra beats of leeway on each note. That's almost exactly the amount of leeway you have to work with to get Psychobilly except over 4 times the amount of notes. In terms of time, you have 12/1000 of a second to screw up each note on average for Yes We Can. On Psychobilly, you only have an average of 8/1000 of a second due to the faster tempo. That still looks ridiculously impossible to me.
Raw Dog doesn't look that hard on paper, so I think that one's just more awkward than anything. With the tempo, 1/8 notes come every 16/100 of a second or so, and there's a leeway of 5/100 to get the activation, not a big deal. The hard part there is more likely switching chords fast enough and staying ahead of the beat than anything with timing restrictions.
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anterth
Joined: 15 Aug 2007
Posts: 661
Location: in Maryland
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nickyboy909
Joined: 07 Mar 2008
Posts: 1289
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| Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 6:37 pm Post subject: |
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Sorry for KIND OF unrelated but, does debr consider the fact made by me  that SOME times you can get a better score from purposely missing a note in sp
I dont know any songs but im sure there's some
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xslaya22x
Joined: 07 Jan 2008
Posts: 540
Location: Detroit
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| Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 7:06 pm Post subject: |
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| nickyboy909 wrote: | Sorry for KIND OF unrelated but, does debr consider the fact made by me that SOME times you can get a better score from purposely missing a note in sp
I dont know any songs but im sure there's some |
I would imagine he would test that as a possible scenario... I know there's a song on (GH1 I think?) that you strum before the notes start on the fretboard and it cancels out that SP, but I know of no others that you have to purposely break your multiplier.
It's pretty unlikely, seeing as missing a note in the best case scenario (single notes with no holds) automatically constitutes as a loss of 2900 points... and this is most likely note going to be the case, so you'd be losing quite a bit of points. Covering phrases you don't want to get with SP activations is more effective than missing notes in SP 99.99999% of the time. Besides, it seems that the charters for the songs in GH are laying out SP in a fashion that would seem to produce optimal scores without missing any SP (the majority of the time, that is).
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PieGuy
Joined: 01 Mar 2007
Posts: 2836
Location: Long Island, NY
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| Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 7:26 pm Post subject: |
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| nickyboy909 wrote: | Sorry for KIND OF unrelated but, does debr consider the fact made by me that SOME times you can get a better score from purposely missing a note in sp
I dont know any songs but im sure there's some |
This theory has been discussed a while now, especially with the release of Rock Band. Apparently some optimal drum paths require overdrumming during a phrase so that you don't miss out on drumfills, and Barbaloot mocked up a chart showing how overstrumming in a phrase could lead to more points:
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zsjostrom35
Joined: 17 Feb 2008
Posts: 2130
Location: Columbus, Ohio
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| Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 7:30 pm Post subject: |
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| xslaya22x wrote: | | nickyboy909 wrote: | Sorry for KIND OF unrelated but, does debr consider the fact made by me that SOME times you can get a better score from purposely missing a note in sp
I dont know any songs but im sure there's some |
I would imagine he would test that as a possible scenario... I know there's a song on (GH1 I think?) that you strum before the notes start on the fretboard and it cancels out that SP, but I know of no others that you have to purposely break your multiplier.
It's pretty unlikely, seeing as missing a note in the best case scenario (single notes with no holds) automatically constitutes as a loss of 2900 points... and this is most likely note going to be the case, so you'd be losing quite a bit of points. Covering phrases you don't want to get with SP activations is more effective than missing notes in SP 99.99999% of the time. Besides, it seems that the charters for the songs in GH are laying out SP in a fashion that would seem to produce optimal scores without missing any SP (the majority of the time, that is). |
This has been discussed before:
| Barbaloot wrote: | Here is a recent thread about this.
Here is a sample chart for which the optimal path would require overstrumming to miss a SP phrase. |
If you don't feel like reading the thread, the short answer is that yes, it is possible. Note, however, that debr does state in the thread that his program will not be able to find a path requiring a deliberate overstrum. Apparently he's waiting for a song that actually requires it before he'll invest the time in rewriting the program.
EDIT: Wow. I've never been ninja'd by a post that enormous before.
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nickyboy909
Joined: 07 Mar 2008
Posts: 1289
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| Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 7:42 pm Post subject: |
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oh ok so im NOT crazy lol
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gusmahler
Joined: 06 Jun 2007
Posts: 758
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| Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 7:51 pm Post subject: |
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| anterth wrote: | i dont mean to dig up old threads but i used the search feature and this seemed like the best place to post it. anyways, i think i can get that last activation and thus like 20000 more points on psychbilly freakout. if its the same as the other places that have those chord changes then ive technically gotten an activation out of it once. the first time they happen I overstrummed right after the GY chord, but i had whammied the earlier notes enough to have exactly an activation. (i dont really think I overstrummed, my controller just seems to do it randomly on hold notes) but anyways i was only able to whammy those 8 notes before the long GY hold and im pretty sure i got none of the whammy on the GY hold and still had my star power ready to activate.
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According to the chart, the measure 28-29 SP phrase is longer than the measure 96-97 SP phrase (7.73 beats compared to 7.52). So being able to activate from measure 28-29 doesn't mean you'll be able to do so at the end.
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