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Mervin1337
Joined: 13 Mar 2008
Posts: 410
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
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 Posted: Thu Dec 04, 2008 5:19 pm Post subject: Is having a Double bass pedal considered cheating? |
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Topic says it all..
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HoorayItsMike
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Posts: 1604
Location: Ohio
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| Posted: Thu Dec 04, 2008 11:37 pm Post subject: |
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I've been wondering this myself. I would imagine it is because this gives you an unfair advantage over everyone else. This is a HUGE unfair advantage as well. I really hope it is cheating, to be honest. It wasn't the way the set was originally intended to be played as, either, so I'm going to say that yes, it is cheating.
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ElementOfZero
Joined: 14 Jul 2007
Posts: 2270
Location: Lake Park, Georgia
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| Posted: Fri Dec 05, 2008 2:34 am Post subject: |
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I think blindzor had a really nice response over on the rockband side. The sum it up:
"If Neversoft/Harmonix were to come out with an official double bass pedal and scorehero still deemed it as cheating, I wouldn't use the site anymore."
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oopogfe
Joined: 19 May 2008
Posts: 429
Location: Fresno, CA
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| Posted: Fri Dec 05, 2008 5:14 am Post subject: |
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I'm not sure if this applies to the GH side, but
| rkcr wrote: | The staff has discussed this issue extensively today and we've come up with our official stance on double bass (as well as all past and future drum controller modifications):
Any drum modification is allowed so long as you are still playing the drums as intended. Each pad/cymbal must lead to one (and only one) lane, the pedal(s) must only work for the bass pedal notes.*
These are some examples of unintended ways to modify and play the drums:
-Using a pedal to play non-pedal notes, or drum heads to play pedal notes.
-Wiring any part of the drum to play multiple notes at once.
-Programming the drums to play a sequence of notes upon hitting a drum pad.
-Autoplay of any kind.
Explanation:
There are only three stances that we could fairly take regarding modifications in general:
1. No modifications are allowed, only stock kits.
2. Modifications will be judged on a case-to-case basis.
3. All modifications are allowed, so long as they don't start playing the game for you.
Unfortunately, there are problems with all three of these:
#1 isn't fair to users who were already given the okay to use certain modifications. In addition, it is cruel to force everyone to play on stock kits.
#2 presents an impossible situation of deciding which mods are fair and which are not. Who is to say that goodwoods are allowed but double bass is not, which one gives someone more of an edge? Is a penny mod okay because it's so cheap, but an electric drum kit not because it costs so much? Should we be judging based on the cost of the modification, the change it makes to your playing style, or the effect it has on your scores? #2 is essentially where we were at before double bass entered the scene in any sort of official manner.
#3 means that the game becomes much more advantageous for players who spend more money.
#1 is simply unacceptable, as enforcing it would make the game a lot less fun for most people - we all know how problematic some of the stock kits are out of the box. #2 is proving itself to be unamanageable, and the arguments in this thread are evidence of how subjective attitudes towards modification fairness can be. On the other hand, #3 is already true - people who spend lots of money already have a leg-up with their expensive kits.
Logically speaking, the best path for us to take is #3. It is easier to moderate in a fair manner, allows people to play how they want, and doesn't dramatically change the current climate of competitive drumming. It is an unfortunate consequence that money becomes so entangled with scores, but that's already been true for a while here (as well as on most sports, where expensive equipment can make a big difference).
P.S. - Stratocaster solo buttons never have, nor are they are they now, illegal for scores. They're part of the stock equipment; there's no way we can say no to that.
*: The only exception to these rules are if you are handicapped and require a modification in order to play the game. An example of such a situation can be found here. |
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Whitt333 
Joined: 03 Dec 2007
Posts: 1535
Location: Minnesota
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| Posted: Fri Dec 05, 2008 6:34 am Post subject: |
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| oopogfe wrote: | I'm not sure if this applies to the GH side, but
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I think this would be applied to this side too.
IMO, if its an official double pedal = legal, unofficial pedal = illegal.
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g0dly
Joined: 07 Feb 2008
Posts: 635
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| Posted: Fri Dec 05, 2008 1:01 pm Post subject: |
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| where do you get an official double bass pedal? theres songs that i want to use it for because the band clearly used one when they made the song. |
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ElementOfZero
Joined: 14 Jul 2007
Posts: 2270
Location: Lake Park, Georgia
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| Posted: Fri Dec 05, 2008 5:10 pm Post subject: |
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| g0dly wrote: | | where do you get an official double bass pedal? theres songs that i want to use it for because the band clearly used one when they made the song. |
Arguably the stock pedal is an official double pass pedal, as all you do is plug two in and it works.
Also, take a look at an on disc song, such as Star Spangled Banner, which it clearly requires double bass in order to play. Or any song with the quick double kicks, This may be an indicator that double bass is a hint for the future.
In the case of double bass peripherals, does this actually make the song less skillful to play? Having a fourth limb coordinated enough is not an easy thing to do, as when/if double bass is "allowed" people will soon find this out. Now, paying for being "better" is the real deal here. Take SomeGuy's 2,000 dollar kit for example. Yes it eliminates a lot of the kits error (if not all) but he is still an amazing drummer, and I know that he'd still be at the top of the leaderboards without it. I.E. see his Anything score with the WT kit.
But, aren't people who pay for a connector to play their SG in the later games essentially doing the same thing here, but for guitar? Their just trying to play with their preference. The skill required to play a song is the same.
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oopogfe
Joined: 19 May 2008
Posts: 429
Location: Fresno, CA
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| Posted: Sat Dec 06, 2008 12:06 am Post subject: |
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| ElementOfZero wrote: | | g0dly wrote: | | where do you get an official double bass pedal? theres songs that i want to use it for because the band clearly used one when they made the song. |
Arguably the stock pedal is an official double pass pedal, as all you do is plug two in and it works.
Also, take a look at an on disc song, such as Star Spangled Banner, which it clearly requires double bass in order to play. Or any song with the quick double kicks, This may be an indicator that double bass is a hint for the future.
In the case of double bass peripherals, does this actually make the song less skillful to play? Having a fourth limb coordinated enough is not an easy thing to do, as when/if double bass is "allowed" people will soon find this out. Now, paying for being "better" is the real deal here. Take SomeGuy's 2,000 dollar kit for example. Yes it eliminates a lot of the kits error (if not all) but he is still an amazing drummer, and I know that he'd still be at the top of the leaderboards without it. I.E. see his Anything score with the WT kit.
But, aren't people who pay for a connector to play their SG in the later games essentially doing the same thing here, but for guitar? Their just trying to play with their preference. The skill required to play a song is the same. |
exactly, except someguy uses his 2k kit with GH too. He uses the midi port in the back to connect it.
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Last edited by oopogfe on Sat Dec 06, 2008 6:37 am; edited 3 times in total |
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ElementOfZero
Joined: 14 Jul 2007
Posts: 2270
Location: Lake Park, Georgia
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| Posted: Sat Dec 06, 2008 4:31 am Post subject: |
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I saw him play on a five lane highway, I didn't know you could map it to that. I thought it was auto-4-lane when you use a midi set, my bad.
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fcedyourmom
Joined: 20 Mar 2008
Posts: 1008
Location: Zebulon, NC
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| Posted: Mon Jan 26, 2009 4:25 am Post subject: |
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| g0dly wrote: | | where do you get an official double bass pedal? theres songs that i want to use it for because the band clearly used one when they made the song. |
Yes, but Neversoft only charted half of the notes, because double bass isn't intended, Seeing Expert+ on GH:M is with it charted. Basically, If you need double bass for expert, you'll be out of luck on expert plus.
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| strikebowler585 wrote: | | GH3 is looser than a whale's vagina |
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SeanSim
Joined: 31 Jan 2009
Posts: 3
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| Posted: Sat Jan 31, 2009 8:14 am Post subject: |
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| fcedyourmom wrote: |
Yes, but Neversoft only charted half of the notes, because double bass isn't intended |
This is actually something I was wondering about.
I don't claim to be a Drums expert, in any way at all. However, by looking at charts, it seems like Neversoft has places where a double bass seems to be intended.
Now, looking at certain songs, it is obvious that they removed many bass drum notes. I know Hot For Teacher is an obvious one, and I think Trapped Under Ice is missing some bass notes as well.
However, there are a lot of places that 16th bass drum notes happen. Usually this is only two, but it makes sense to me that the original drummer used two bass drums to perform these notes.
One song I can think of is the opening to Scream Aim Fire. The Blue-Blue-Bass-Bass 16th notes. From looking at this, it seems like two bass drums are almost necessary to play this. Like I said, I don't claim to be an expert drummer, so I am not at all saying "Because I can't hit this, no one can." And, I haven't really practiced all that much this part.
I'm sure many people can actually play this, but I have heard a lot of people saying "sse two feet!" Well, that is a completely ridiculous solution. If that is the solution that has to be done, then so be it, but I think Neversoft could have reduced the number of notes to be realistic, or supply an additional pedal. Other people say "hit one note early!" I believe this to be absurd as well. Obviously if one cannot play to the actual rhythm of the song, then Neversoft could have reduced the number of notes.
I might be completely incorrect in my above paragraph, though. People probably can play these notes with extreme ease. And maybe, I just am not suited to hit them. Or, maybe the original drummer did actually use only one bass.
However, if Neversoft did expect people to play with two feet on one pedal, I think they should have just did a favor and included the extra one.
In either case, I think I might just fork over the money to get an extra pedal, even if it's for a more realistic feel. :P I'll just feel down on myself for not being able to play as Neversoft intended, i.e. with one pedal. I'll feel like I am cheating even just for myself. |
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Azerach
Joined: 31 Mar 2008
Posts: 56
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| Posted: Sun Feb 01, 2009 12:33 am Post subject: |
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| SeanSim wrote: | | I'll just feel down on myself for not being able to play as Neversoft intended, i.e. with one pedal. I'll feel like I am cheating even just for myself. |
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-uVKTvxToYs
go to 0:13 and 3:23
im pretty sure that thats double bass with all the notes charted, anyone disagree? 
its quite obvious that neversoft never intended this to be played with just 1 pedal. it would be a bit ridiculous to expect people to FC that with 1 pedal.
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| jdamillio wrote: | | i sware if neversoft fucks up GH:M, i will quit guitar hero forever. and then i will eat a bomb, go to neversoft headquarters, and i will express myself not in anger, but in millions of pieces. I know I'm a dick and all, but i think many people would eat a bomb and go to NS headquarters with me. |
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ABee1010
Joined: 18 Nov 2008
Posts: 133
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| Posted: Mon Feb 02, 2009 2:32 pm Post subject: |
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| SeanSim wrote: |
However, there are a lot of places that 16th bass drum notes happen. Usually this is only two, but it makes sense to me that the original drummer used two bass drums to perform these notes. |
It is actually much less common for a real drummer to do double hits like this with 2 bass pedals. A double hit is a very common and basic technique to do with a single pedal. The problem is that the GH and RB pedals don't rebound as much as a real pedal bouncing of a bass drum. So for that reason, this part may be easier with 2 feet in the game on the toy kit, but it should not be assumed that is true for real drumming... |
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SeanSim
Joined: 31 Jan 2009
Posts: 3
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| Posted: Mon Feb 02, 2009 6:01 pm Post subject: |
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ABee, I think you hit it, then.
I wasn't sure before if a real drummer would use one or two basses.
If it is a simple technique with one bass, then Neversoft technically charted them all correctly. However, because of the hardware limitations -- It takes more than a 16th note of time for the pedal to "reset" -- then two pedals would almost be required to hit all of the notes charted. |
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ABee1010
Joined: 18 Nov 2008
Posts: 133
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| Posted: Mon Feb 02, 2009 6:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Yeah, I play on an E-Kit so I don't have too much experience with the WT kit. I was able to do double kicks OK with the WT peddle, but it was a little harder than the real kick. What you say makes logical sense though, that if the double hit is fast enough, the spring in the peadle eventually will not be able to return the pedal fast enough. With the real kick drum, the faster you play, the faster it recoils. I am still practicing hard though (I'm a bit of a perfectionist and won't move on till I 5 star everyting on hard), so I haven't seen too many crazy kick patterns yet... |
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