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jordanpwnsme
Joined: 06 Jun 2008
Posts: 769
Location: USA, I'm on NTSC
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 Posted: Sun Dec 07, 2008 4:59 am Post subject: |
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The songs sound cool together.
Satch and coldplay should kiss and make up, then make a song together.
"Surfing at the speed of sound" anyone?
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Confrontational
Joined: 15 Aug 2007
Posts: 1131
Location: A floating rock out in the Pacific
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| Posted: Sun Dec 07, 2008 9:19 pm Post subject: |
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I'm not sure where the rest of you are getting your definitions of what plagarism is, but in college if you so much as quote a single sentence in a term paper without accrediting that source, you can get failed out of class and even expelled. It doesn't matter if it's one bad sentence in a 20-page work of art or a 3-page copy-paste with a few words changed, plagarism is plagarism.
Satch does have a case for the fact that the melody, the chord progression, the timing of the chord changes, the rhythm, the tempo were all the same. It doesn't matter if it's for five seconds, if even those five seconds sound so incredibly similar in nature that a judge finds it to be implausible that the two artists came up with the same melody, chord progression, rhythm, tempo and timing of chord changes independent of foreign influences, it's plagarism.
As for the case of this third Latin band before Satch, it's dodgier because it's just the three notes (nothing else about the two songs is similar, unlike the Coldplay case), and those three notes are easy enough to come up with on their own independent of outside influences. But if this third band could establish that Satch drew upon them when writing "If I Could Fly", that too would be plagarism.
I'm not sure why this is even being contested.
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Sottle 
Joined: 14 May 2006
Posts: 3050
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Whitt333 
Joined: 03 Dec 2007
Posts: 1535
Location: Minnesota
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| Posted: Sun Dec 07, 2008 9:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Sottle wrote: | | Because it's a fucking coincidence. |
If you told a teacher that after you plagiarized they would laugh at you.
Watch the video, seriously.
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Confrontational
Joined: 15 Aug 2007
Posts: 1131
Location: A floating rock out in the Pacific
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| Posted: Sun Dec 07, 2008 9:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Sottle wrote: | | Because it's a fucking coincidence. |
Yeah, that wouldn't fly with my teachers. I'm sweating my Science final because the teacher specifically wrote on the assignment outline that anything more than four words in a row taken from a site results in an automatic 0 for the class, meaning I have to make sure that not only do I have to write my own stuff (which isn't a problem), I have to make sure what I write is completely different from my sourcework (which is). If I turn in something that's too close to a commonly viewed source, even if it's a coincidence, I could catch Hell for it.
"Coincidences" don't exist in copyright law. Either the work is the same or it isn't. It's as incredibly simple as that--and that's all this case should really boil down to.
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Drevenant
Joined: 23 Aug 2007
Posts: 562
Location: Foley, AL
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| Posted: Sun Dec 07, 2008 11:30 pm Post subject: |
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Papers have nothing to do with it. That's a different story. Those are WORDS. Just like Satriani is suing Coldplay because 3 or 4 notes of Coldplay's vocalist's VOICE sounded like a GUITAR part from some shitty, obscure, and generic guitar song, which sounded just like 3 or so notes from OTHER obscure, generic, and shitty guitar song.
This has happened in the past and it'll happen forever. And ever. And maybe some more ever, after that ever. It's no big deal. This is just a grab for cash on Joe's part.
I bet you 1 infinity dollars that he was sitting on his couch, watching MTV when suddenly, Viva La Vida started playing, and he says to himself, "Heh, that sounds kinda like one of my ol' songs, but just barely.  " Suddenly, his stomach growls, and he thinks, "I sure could use something to munch on inbetween shows. If only I had some more cash" Then he looks back up at the TV, and BAM, next thing you know, lawsuit.
Joe doesn't give a FUCK about Viva La Vida, he just wants the money from it.
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Confrontational
Joined: 15 Aug 2007
Posts: 1131
Location: A floating rock out in the Pacific
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| Posted: Sun Dec 07, 2008 11:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Drevenant wrote: | Papers have nothing to do with it. That's a different story. Those are WORDS. Just like Satriani is suing Coldplay because 3 or 4 notes of Coldplay's vocalist's VOICE sounded like a GUITAR part from some shitty, obscure, and generic guitar song, which sounded just like 3 or so notes from OTHER obscure, generic, and shitty guitar song.
This has happened in the past and it'll happen forever. And ever. And maybe some more ever, after that ever. It's no big deal. This is just a grab for cash on Joe's part.
I bet you 1 infinity dollars that he was sitting on his couch, watching MTV when suddenly, Viva La Vida started playing, and he says to himself, "Heh, that sounds kinda like one of my ol' songs, but just barely. " Suddenly, his stomach growls, and he thinks, "I sure could use something to munch on inbetween shows. If only I had some more cash" Then he looks back up at the TV, and BAM, next thing you know, lawsuit.
Joe doesn't give a FUCK about Viva La Vida, he just wants the money from it. |
That looks and sounds a lot more like emotionally-driven character assassination than anything even resembling a logical argument against this being considered plagarism.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I strongly doubt that I am.
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ViolenceFight
Joined: 04 Nov 2007
Posts: 297
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| Posted: Sun Dec 07, 2008 11:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Drevenant wrote: | Papers have nothing to do with it. That's a different story. Those are WORDS. Just like Satriani is suing Coldplay because 3 or 4 notes of Coldplay's vocalist's VOICE sounded like a GUITAR part from some shitty, obscure, and generic guitar song, which sounded just like 3 or so notes from OTHER obscure, generic, and shitty guitar song.
This has happened in the past and it'll happen forever. And ever. And maybe some more ever, after that ever. It's no big deal. This is just a grab for cash on Joe's part.
I bet you 1 infinity dollars that he was sitting on his couch, watching MTV when suddenly, Viva La Vida started playing, and he says to himself, "Heh, that sounds kinda like one of my ol' songs, but just barely. " Suddenly, his stomach growls, and he thinks, "I sure could use something to munch on inbetween shows. If only I had some more cash" Then he looks back up at the TV, and BAM, next thing you know, lawsuit.
Joe doesn't give a FUCK about Viva La Vida, he just wants the money from it. |
No offense, the man's not rich, but I'm sure he gets endorsement checks from Ibanez and Planet Waves(I believe he actually has his own brand of guitar straps and what-not from PW aswell, which I'm sure he gets a kick back for). Satriani is not as obscure as you would believe, and definitely not obscure in the eyes of guitar players. Point Being, He's not loaded with cash, but I garuntee he's more than financially stable enough to NOT SUE SOMEONE BECAUSE HE HAS NO CASH.
as for the legal case: as a musician I see this as bad business, as there are 12 notes you can play, and a always a chance of someone playing something similar.
From a copyright perspective, It's up in the air and it's up to the judge to determine whether or not there is a grounds for a case here.
No one should be acting like someone else in this thread is "Fucking Retarded" because they stated an opinion on something that is VERY MUCH up in the air and up for discussion. Negative musical implications aside, I'd assume none of us are Lawyers, or Judges with enough understanding of copyright laws to make anything more than an UNEDUCATED Guess.
Side Note: If this was Lars Ulrich, I would say it's a grab for cash. I'd like to believe Satriani, especially with the way he's portrayed in some of his interviews, isn't the type to make a grab for cash but I could be wrong(Although I hope I'm not for integrity sake).
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TheGreatSombrero
Joined: 29 Jun 2007
Posts: 612
Location: Bloomington, IN
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| Posted: Sun Dec 07, 2008 11:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Correct me if I'm wrong |
I think you are wrong. Your teacher might not want you to have 4 consecutive words in your paper that have ever appeared in printed english work before, but that's much to high of a standard to hold the community to in copyright law. If that was that standard, I think that my "I think you are" at the beginning of my sentence would be plagiarism. Arrest me!
I don't know the way things really are, but I have a strong opinion on how things should be, and no fucking way should the satriani/coldplay thing be ruled as plagiarism. Unless there is evidence that they did knowingly rip off his song, then all there is the coincidental fact that the songs have eerily similar melodies. But guess what! The riff at the end of For Whom the Bell Tolls sounds exactly like a riff from Fairies Wear Boots, I noticed this when I was like ten. I didn't conclude then, and I won't conclude now that Metallica Ripped off Black Sabbath, cause that just how music fucking works.
If satriani gets his money then what the fuck is the point of writing songs anymore!? Anything you write is going to sound similar to something out there written by someone else, so you may as well just give up on music.
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bjwdestroyer 
Joined: 30 Jun 2007
Posts: 4786
Location: I have more posts than you, who cares where I am.
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| Posted: Sun Dec 07, 2008 11:53 pm Post subject: |
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The amount of bias in this thread fucking sucks. If Satch were suing Metallica, this thread would be far more entertaining to follow.
In the world of academia, Plagiarism has a very fine line and the the punishments can be very extreme. Outside of this... I really don't know, but I am inclined to say that it can be very subjective and no line has actually been drawn (of course, if a song uses everything another song uses aside for perhaps one thing like vocals, then yeah, that's plagiarism).
I'd like to think that this is purely coincidence simply because coincidences do happen. Although I have no idea how strong Satch's case is, I'm completely indifferent as to whether or not he wins.
And to those of you who are hoping that this case makes Satch more popular, you better take that back. Knowing the elitism on these forums (or the internet in general), if Satch becomes popular, then he is "nothing more than another mainstream artist like Coldplay." |
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toymachine 
Joined: 30 Oct 2006
Posts: 9629
Location: Toronto
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| Posted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 12:33 am Post subject: |
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Chris Martin should be forced to never do anything ever again ever.
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Shotgunmerc
Joined: 04 Mar 2008
Posts: 1354
Location: Alexandria, VA
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| Posted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 12:38 am Post subject: |
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| bjwdestroyer wrote: | The amount of bias in this thread fucking sucks. If Satch were suing Metallica, this thread would be far more entertaining to follow.
In the world of academia, Plagiarism has a very fine line and the the punishments can be very extreme. Outside of this... I really don't know, but I am inclined to say that it can be very subjective and no line has actually been drawn (of course, if a song uses everything another song uses aside for perhaps one thing like vocals, then yeah, that's plagiarism).
I'd like to think that this is purely coincidence simply because coincidences do happen. Although I have no idea how strong Satch's case is, I'm completely indifferent as to whether or not he wins.
And to those of you who are hoping that this case makes Satch more popular, you better take that back. Knowing the elitism on these forums (or the internet in general), if Satch becomes popular, then he is "nothing more than another mainstream artist like Coldplay." |
my point was exactly this: people will know satriani know as the bald guy who sued cold play. this will have no positive impact whatsoever on satriani in my mind.
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Drevenant
Joined: 23 Aug 2007
Posts: 562
Location: Foley, AL
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| Posted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 12:46 am Post subject: |
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| ViolenceFight wrote: | | Drevenant wrote: | Papers have nothing to do with it. That's a different story. Those are WORDS. Just like Satriani is suing Coldplay because 3 or 4 notes of Coldplay's vocalist's VOICE sounded like a GUITAR part from some shitty, obscure, and generic guitar song, which sounded just like 3 or so notes from OTHER obscure, generic, and shitty guitar song.
This has happened in the past and it'll happen forever. And ever. And maybe some more ever, after that ever. It's no big deal. This is just a grab for cash on Joe's part.
I bet you 1 infinity dollars that he was sitting on his couch, watching MTV when suddenly, Viva La Vida started playing, and he says to himself, "Heh, that sounds kinda like one of my ol' songs, but just barely. " Suddenly, his stomach growls, and he thinks, "I sure could use something to munch on inbetween shows. If only I had some more cash" Then he looks back up at the TV, and BAM, next thing you know, lawsuit.
Joe doesn't give a FUCK about Viva La Vida, he just wants the money from it. |
No offense, the man's not rich, but I'm sure he gets endorsement checks from Ibanez and Planet Waves(I believe he actually has his own brand of guitar straps and what-not from PW aswell, which I'm sure he gets a kick back for). Satriani is not as obscure as you would believe, and definitely not obscure in the eyes of guitar players. Point Being, He's not loaded with cash, but I garuntee he's more than financially stable enough to NOT SUE SOMEONE BECAUSE HE HAS NO CASH.
as for the legal case: as a musician I see this as bad business, as there are 12 notes you can play, and a always a chance of someone playing something similar.
From a copyright perspective, It's up in the air and it's up to the judge to determine whether or not there is a grounds for a case here.
No one should be acting like someone else in this thread is "Fucking Retarded" because they stated an opinion on something that is VERY MUCH up in the air and up for discussion. Negative musical implications aside, I'd assume none of us are Lawyers, or Judges with enough understanding of copyright laws to make anything more than an UNEDUCATED Guess.
Side Note: If this was Lars Ulrich, I would say it's a grab for cash. I'd like to believe Satriani, especially with the way he's portrayed in some of his interviews, isn't the type to make a grab for cash but I could be wrong(Although I hope I'm not for integrity sake). |
I'm aware that Joe Satriani isn't obscure, everyone I know knows about him, I know about him, and I recognize that he is a good guitar player. But despite him being a great guitar player, that does not mean he's a great songwriter. I do not enjoy his music nearly as much as I enjoy Buckethead's music, because Buckethead is both a great player and a great songwriter. And from what I listened to of that song of his, it's incredibly generic and I would think it's one of his lesser-known songs. I could be wrong there, but I stand by that it's very generic and anyone with half a brain, a guitar, and a few years' worth of guitar playing could come up with that whole song.
I'm not basing my opinion off of how much I like him either. I just know that there was no need to bring up a lawsuit over such a trivial matter, and the way the majority of Joe's defenders on this forum are acting is an unprofessional take on the situation.
Like many here have said, I don't know how well Joe's case will stack up, but in my own opinion, I don't believe he deserves to win this at all. If he DOES win, I'm not going to hate Coldplay for plagiarizing, because I still stand by the belief that they did not.
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nbh2992
Joined: 24 Jul 2007
Posts: 514
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| Posted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 1:20 am Post subject: |
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Plagiarism? Don't make me laugh. The idea of this lawsuit is ridiculous.
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thetubaman
Joined: 14 Jun 2007
Posts: 589
Location: A Box
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| Posted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 1:48 am Post subject: |
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If you think this is bad you should listen to For Sure by Lostprophets and then My Curse by Killswitch Engage. Exact same notes, and tone in the intro on guitar.
Anyways on topic:
Its probably a coincidence...... Thats just what happens in music sometimes. |
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