Alternative Ambient Indie Neo Prog-Punk (or Why Genres Suck)

[Kinitawowi]

So ever since the Music Forum came into being (and probably long, long before that), there's been a whole wealth of threads dedicated to pretty much every concievable spot on the genre spectrum. And one question has been bugging me; why?

I've never liked genres. Most of the time, they have no real meaning; you could create about sixty new genres of music by perming two fairly basic lists. List 1: "ambient, neo, post, alt, speed, power, thrash, extreme, nu, kraut, progressive, indie, rap, emo"; list 2: "rock, metal, dance, pop, punk, prog, rap, country". Pick one from list 1 and one from list 2, et voila, instant genre! (I know Progressive Prog and Rap Rap would be tautological, but that's the point. And they would probably also be quite funny.)

That's a hundred-odd genres right there, and that's before you start multiplying List 1 entries together ("Extreme Power Metal", anyone?). Can anybody honestly tell all of them apart? And can anybody else name a band who fit entirely and exclusively into one of them? Of course not.

The other problem is that it encourages laziness. Whenever I talk to people about music (and, for that matter, anything else; it's a very common conversation starter), there's always one question that gets asked; "so, what sort of music are you into?" And I've never, ever been able to answer it to anyone's satisfaction, because I listen to what could be considered as "all sorts". For me, the only graduation that's important in music is "music I like" and "music I don't like". Breaking it down further is nigh-on impossible, because most bands don't stick within one genre for all their output; and it's also fairly unimaginative, because it tends to impose a lot of restrictions on what you listen to. "I like Progressive Rock, and that's about it."

And the real point is that the biggest problem with that question is that it's very rarely asked in order to classify music; more often than not it's to classify listeners. "Cool people listen to Alt Punk! You do not listen to Alt Punk, therefore you are not cool!"

It just bugs me.

Thoughts?
_________________

My Crapchievements Thread GOAL: The Log [Beast And The Harlot 4.7*]
"Our Father, who art in Heaven... please, stay there." - Saint Etienne, New Thing

[Kinitawowi]

So ever since the Music Forum came into being (and probably long, long before that), there's been a whole wealth of threads dedicated to pretty much every concievable spot on the genre spectrum. And one question has been bugging me; why?

I've never liked genres. Most of the time, they have no real meaning; you could create about sixty new genres of music by perming two fairly basic lists. List 1: "ambient, neo, post, alt, speed, power, thrash, extreme, nu, kraut, progressive, indie, rap, emo"; list 2: "rock, metal, dance, pop, punk, prog, rap, country". Pick one from list 1 and one from list 2, et voila, instant genre! (I know Progressive Prog and Rap Rap would be tautological, but that's the point. And they would probably also be quite funny.)

That's a hundred-odd genres right there, and that's before you start multiplying List 1 entries together ("Extreme Power Metal", anyone?). Can anybody honestly tell all of them apart? And can anybody else name a band who fit entirely and exclusively into one of them? Of course not.

The other problem is that it encourages laziness. Whenever I talk to people about music (and, for that matter, anything else; it's a very common conversation starter), there's always one question that gets asked; "so, what sort of music are you into?" And I've never, ever been able to answer it to anyone's satisfaction, because I listen to what could be considered as "all sorts". For me, the only graduation that's important in music is "music I like" and "music I don't like". Breaking it down further is nigh-on impossible, because most bands don't stick within one genre for all their output; and it's also fairly unimaginative, because it tends to impose a lot of restrictions on what you listen to. "I like Progressive Rock, and that's about it."

And the real point is that the biggest problem with that question is that it's very rarely asked in order to classify music; more often than not it's to classify listeners. "Cool people listen to Alt Punk! You do not listen to Alt Punk, therefore you are not cool!"

It just bugs me.

Thoughts?
_________________

My Crapchievements Thread GOAL: The Log [Beast And The Harlot 4.7*]
"Our Father, who art in Heaven... please, stay there." - Saint Etienne, New Thing

[thecaptainof]

I think all I can really say to that is "pretty much that", which is weird because it's completely at odds with a fair amount of previous rambling... although I've always been terrible at describing music so perhaps it makes no difference either way.

But, really, this:

[thecaptainof]

I think all I can really say to that is "pretty much that", which is weird because it's completely at odds with a fair amount of previous rambling... although I've always been terrible at describing music so perhaps it makes no difference either way.

But, really, this:

[TheLieInKing]

Some people enjoy categorising music extensively. Whilst I personally can't appreciate this, I can understand it; it's simply a human response.
_________________

[TheLieInKing]

Some people enjoy categorising music extensively. Whilst I personally can't appreciate this, I can understand it; it's simply a human response.
_________________

[Ensiferum]

I do agree, but only with certain parts of your argument. I agree that any sort of social ladder derived from musical genres is ridiculous. Once people start pulling the "You don't listen to X genre, you are not a true listener or fan" card, then I start to really think whether or not we need all these obscure genres.

Now I won't proclaim myself some sort of genre genius, but I do like to have a little variety in choosing how to describe bands. For me, specific genres make it easier to find similar bands to the ones you enjoy. I may be missing the point, but here's an example in a world with just basic genre descriptions.

Joe: "Hey, Bob, I really like Opeth, can you suggest me some more metal?
Bob: "Metal? Sure, here's some metal; Agalloch, or Deicide?, or Metallica, or (the only relevant one), Katatonia

You could just say that anyone that knows anything about music will be able to sort out bands without genres, but I find them to be useful. Wow, I can't seem to form a coherent thought...sorry.
_________________

[Ensiferum]

I do agree, but only with certain parts of your argument. I agree that any sort of social ladder derived from musical genres is ridiculous. Once people start pulling the "You don't listen to X genre, you are not a true listener or fan" card, then I start to really think whether or not we need all these obscure genres.

Now I won't proclaim myself some sort of genre genius, but I do like to have a little variety in choosing how to describe bands. For me, specific genres make it easier to find similar bands to the ones you enjoy. I may be missing the point, but here's an example in a world with just basic genre descriptions.

Joe: "Hey, Bob, I really like Opeth, can you suggest me some more metal?
Bob: "Metal? Sure, here's some metal; Agalloch, or Deicide?, or Metallica, or (the only relevant one), Katatonia

You could just say that anyone that knows anything about music will be able to sort out bands without genres, but I find them to be useful. Wow, I can't seem to form a coherent thought...sorry.
_________________

[Twang]

It's for distinguishing styles of music that are fundamentally similar, but generally different, or something like that.

I've never gotten the hang-up that you (and many other people) have with the different classifications and genres. It's just an organization method, nothing more, nothing less. They really only have as much meaning as you give them.

I'd rather have 30 topics named "Ambient Dance," "Neo-Country," "Thrash Rap," "Post-Pop" or "Progressive Indie Punk," etc. than 30 topics named "Music I Like" or "Music I Don't Like, But You Might." That would be so counter-intuitive, because you would not be able to keep track of anything and all topics would pretty much be the same (in that they're so wildly different) and even more arbitrary.

[Twang]

It's for distinguishing styles of music that are fundamentally similar, but generally different, or something like that.

I've never gotten the hang-up that you (and many other people) have with the different classifications and genres. It's just an organization method, nothing more, nothing less. They really only have as much meaning as you give them.

I'd rather have 30 topics named "Ambient Dance," "Neo-Country," "Thrash Rap," "Post-Pop" or "Progressive Indie Punk," etc. than 30 topics named "Music I Like" or "Music I Don't Like, But You Might." That would be so counter-intuitive, because you would not be able to keep track of anything and all topics would pretty much be the same (in that they're so wildly different) and even more arbitrary.

[GuitarHailz]

[GuitarHailz]

[Kinitawowi]

See, I get the human instinct to label and categorise. That's fine; as has been noted, it can be quite beneficial when:

1) labels aren't used as a tool for derogation, and
2) the gaps between boxes are wide enough for the labels to retain meaning.

As an example, let's take the thread that truly inspired this post; the Post-Rock thread. I've read through it a few times, and seen what else people have discussed in there, and I can't find any meaningful difference between what gets called "post rock" and what gets called "ambient rock". So the question becomes, why bother? Using the genre as a means of categorising music falls down when the lines between the genres are too blurred (which is inevitable when there's so many genres - and, more problematically, sub-genres), and that's the thought from which this thread is rooted.

Let's also look at Ensiferum's hypothetical.

[Kinitawowi]

See, I get the human instinct to label and categorise. That's fine; as has been noted, it can be quite beneficial when:

1) labels aren't used as a tool for derogation, and
2) the gaps between boxes are wide enough for the labels to retain meaning.

As an example, let's take the thread that truly inspired this post; the Post-Rock thread. I've read through it a few times, and seen what else people have discussed in there, and I can't find any meaningful difference between what gets called "post rock" and what gets called "ambient rock". So the question becomes, why bother? Using the genre as a means of categorising music falls down when the lines between the genres are too blurred (which is inevitable when there's so many genres - and, more problematically, sub-genres), and that's the thought from which this thread is rooted.

Let's also look at Ensiferum's hypothetical.

[Twang]

Well, there is a difference (albeit subtle) between ambient music and post-rock. Post-rock is a progression of rock music, highly influenced by ambient music (to the point where, as you said, they're hard to tell from each other). The reason they're both included in the same thread is they provide similar experiences, and their fanbases overlap.

I don't claim to be an expert on either genre, however.

[Twang]

Well, there is a difference (albeit subtle) between ambient music and post-rock. Post-rock is a progression of rock music, highly influenced by ambient music (to the point where, as you said, they're hard to tell from each other). The reason they're both included in the same thread is they provide similar experiences, and their fanbases overlap.

I don't claim to be an expert on either genre, however.

[machchunk]

[machchunk]

[eyewin8]

People ask me about what kind of music I like and I just say ">everything but country and rap"



But really, I don't really care much on genre whoring. It classifies the music, so it has some purpose. I only have a problem with it when people try and list these obscure subgenres that nobody has ever heard of, when they could have easily just said it sounded like a main genre
_________________

Shvereal proved me wrong by FCing SWTA 1a and 2d without elbow strums. He is the motherfucking shit.

[eyewin8]

People ask me about what kind of music I like and I just say ">everything but country and rap"



But really, I don't really care much on genre whoring. It classifies the music, so it has some purpose. I only have a problem with it when people try and list these obscure subgenres that nobody has ever heard of, when they could have easily just said it sounded like a main genre
_________________

Shvereal proved me wrong by FCing SWTA 1a and 2d without elbow strums. He is the motherfucking shit.

[GIRLintheFIRE]

[GIRLintheFIRE]

[Southparkhero]

On /mu/ (OMG 4CHAN IT MUST BE BAD!!!! <_<) I've heard some crazy genres like Ambient punk post hardcore or something like that. I think its rediculous.

Edit: LOL

Anonymous 01/30/10(Sat)15:22 No.7292125
0-15 Nothing
16 Guns and roses
17-20 Nothing again
21 not hit songs from one hit electronic music musicians
22-23 some house, trance and jungle songs that i found on net

24- chiptune, house, funeral doom metal, casiocore, progressive metal, drone doom metal, trance, industrial, digital hardcore, volta do mar, crime in choir

25- progressive metal, ambient, dark ambient,casiocore, chiptune, house, funeral doom metal, drone doom metal, trance, industrial, digital hardcore, crime in choir, volta do mar,
_________________

sdfadf

[Southparkhero]

On /mu/ (OMG 4CHAN IT MUST BE BAD!!!! <_<) I've heard some crazy genres like Ambient punk post hardcore or something like that. I think its rediculous.

Edit: LOL

Anonymous 01/30/10(Sat)15:22 No.7292125
0-15 Nothing
16 Guns and roses
17-20 Nothing again
21 not hit songs from one hit electronic music musicians
22-23 some house, trance and jungle songs that i found on net

24- chiptune, house, funeral doom metal, casiocore, progressive metal, drone doom metal, trance, industrial, digital hardcore, volta do mar, crime in choir

25- progressive metal, ambient, dark ambient,casiocore, chiptune, house, funeral doom metal, drone doom metal, trance, industrial, digital hardcore, crime in choir, volta do mar,
_________________

sdfadf

[Bmad965]

[Bmad965]

[munkyzero]

[munkyzero]

[Sixen]

I think unless its after the word "hard", core should never be used in genre names.

from: http://en.allexperts.com/e/l/li/list_of_music_genres_suffixed_-core.htm

* ArtCore- Know for use by Dustin. Shelton, and Chris.
* AfroCore- Also known as Marsvoltacore
* Acidcore - an alternative name for freeform hardcore.
* Breakcore - fusion of hardcore, jungle and techno AKA Noizecore
* Christcore - Christian hardcore punk or metalcore.
* Cuddlecore - punk-influenced twee pop
* Darkcore - style of hardcore techno
* Discore - alternate term for D-Beat punk.
* Drillcore - a cross between breakcore and drill 'n bass
* Emocore - later and better known as emo
* Emo-Metalcore - fusion of metalcore and emo
* Funcore - a term used by Dutch based Babyboom Records label to describe bouncy techno
* Folkcore - fusion of hardcore punk and folk music
* Funkcore - fusion of hardcore punk and funk
* Glamcore - fusion of riot grrl, thrash metal, and glam rock
* Gloomcore - simple music, with a story that usually has to do something with drugs
* Gorecore - goregrind played in a more traditional grindcore style
* Gothcore - fusion of hardcore punk and gothic music
* Grindcore - a thrashcore/crossover thrash hybrid
* Happycore - variety of swift, hard trance music AKA Happy Hardcore
* Hatecore - white power hardcore punk
* Hopcore - fusion of hardcore punk and hip hop music
* Homocore - alternate term for queercore
* Horrorcore - style of hip hop with graphically violent and sexual lyrics
* Horror hardcore a style of Misfits influenced hardcore punk
* Japcore - Japanese hardcore punk
* Mathcore - a fusion of metalcore and math rock
* Metalcore - fusion of hardcore punk and heavy metal
* Nerdcore - style of hip hop with nerd-themed lyrics
* Noisecore - a largely anti-technical, anti-clean sounding form of grindcore, sometimes an alternate term for noise music AKA Breakcore
* Norsecore - style of black metal
* Polkacore - fusion of hardcore punk and polka
* Popcore - fusion of hardcore punk and pop punk
* Punkcore - anarchistic hardcore techno mixed with punk rock samples
* Queercore - style of hardcore punk with gay and lesbian-themed lyrics
* Raggacore - fusion of breakcore and ragga
* Rapcore - fusion of punk, heavy metal, hip hop, and funk
* Sadcore - style of late '80s indie rock with sadness and loneliness-themed lyrics
* Skacore - fusion of hardcore punk and ska punk
* Skatecore - alternate term for skate punk
* Slowcore - alternate term for sadcore
* Sludgecore - a music style similar to sludge metal
* Speedcore - music with very fast bpm (250bpm and faster)
* Spazzcore - term for over-the-top spastic and volatile punk.
* Synthcore - alternative name for electroclash that never found popularity. also a type of coldwave without guitars.
* Stenchcore - early term for crust punk
* Terrorcore - a subgenre of hardcore techno with "scary" or horror themed samples
* Thrashcore - fast(er) hardcore punk
* Trancecore - uplifting and epic music, close to freeform
* Twangcore - alternate term for alternative country
* Yardcore - an alternative name for raggacore
* Thugcore - fusion of hip hop and metalcore or hardcore punk

These are all ridiculously stupid of you ask me.

[Sixen]

I think unless its after the word "hard", core should never be used in genre names.

from: http://en.allexperts.com/e/l/li/list_of_music_genres_suffixed_-core.htm

* ArtCore- Know for use by Dustin. Shelton, and Chris.
* AfroCore- Also known as Marsvoltacore
* Acidcore - an alternative name for freeform hardcore.
* Breakcore - fusion of hardcore, jungle and techno AKA Noizecore
* Christcore - Christian hardcore punk or metalcore.
* Cuddlecore - punk-influenced twee pop
* Darkcore - style of hardcore techno
* Discore - alternate term for D-Beat punk.
* Drillcore - a cross between breakcore and drill 'n bass
* Emocore - later and better known as emo
* Emo-Metalcore - fusion of metalcore and emo
* Funcore - a term used by Dutch based Babyboom Records label to describe bouncy techno
* Folkcore - fusion of hardcore punk and folk music
* Funkcore - fusion of hardcore punk and funk
* Glamcore - fusion of riot grrl, thrash metal, and glam rock
* Gloomcore - simple music, with a story that usually has to do something with drugs
* Gorecore - goregrind played in a more traditional grindcore style
* Gothcore - fusion of hardcore punk and gothic music
* Grindcore - a thrashcore/crossover thrash hybrid
* Happycore - variety of swift, hard trance music AKA Happy Hardcore
* Hatecore - white power hardcore punk
* Hopcore - fusion of hardcore punk and hip hop music
* Homocore - alternate term for queercore
* Horrorcore - style of hip hop with graphically violent and sexual lyrics
* Horror hardcore a style of Misfits influenced hardcore punk
* Japcore - Japanese hardcore punk
* Mathcore - a fusion of metalcore and math rock
* Metalcore - fusion of hardcore punk and heavy metal
* Nerdcore - style of hip hop with nerd-themed lyrics
* Noisecore - a largely anti-technical, anti-clean sounding form of grindcore, sometimes an alternate term for noise music AKA Breakcore
* Norsecore - style of black metal
* Polkacore - fusion of hardcore punk and polka
* Popcore - fusion of hardcore punk and pop punk
* Punkcore - anarchistic hardcore techno mixed with punk rock samples
* Queercore - style of hardcore punk with gay and lesbian-themed lyrics
* Raggacore - fusion of breakcore and ragga
* Rapcore - fusion of punk, heavy metal, hip hop, and funk
* Sadcore - style of late '80s indie rock with sadness and loneliness-themed lyrics
* Skacore - fusion of hardcore punk and ska punk
* Skatecore - alternate term for skate punk
* Slowcore - alternate term for sadcore
* Sludgecore - a music style similar to sludge metal
* Speedcore - music with very fast bpm (250bpm and faster)
* Spazzcore - term for over-the-top spastic and volatile punk.
* Synthcore - alternative name for electroclash that never found popularity. also a type of coldwave without guitars.
* Stenchcore - early term for crust punk
* Terrorcore - a subgenre of hardcore techno with "scary" or horror themed samples
* Thrashcore - fast(er) hardcore punk
* Trancecore - uplifting and epic music, close to freeform
* Twangcore - alternate term for alternative country
* Yardcore - an alternative name for raggacore
* Thugcore - fusion of hip hop and metalcore or hardcore punk

These are all ridiculously stupid of you ask me.