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youhas 
Joined: 21 Jul 2006
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Location: Santa Clara, CA
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 Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 1:36 pm Post subject: |
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| bclare wrote: | And @youhas, yeah I feel sorta generally the same way, so you and I debating would probably be a little dull  |
Based on sundry ambient past conversation, I sort of assumed that would be the case.  Figured I'd at least toss a concrete position out there, though, so if someone were all, "no, youhas, you are Totes Super Wrong and we should chat about this"... well, at least we have a point from whence Interesting Conversation can arise.
(I'm still quietly hoping that some wide-eyed Objectivist wants to have a pleasant chat. Because holy geez, do I find Ayn Rand fanboys to be generally insufferable. But that is neither here nor there.)
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anonymous_25
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| Posted: Sun Jun 24, 2012 1:48 am Post subject: |
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bclare
Joined: 21 Jun 2008
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Location: Boston
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| Posted: Sun Jun 24, 2012 5:13 am Post subject: |
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| DeftrockX3 wrote: | | Is the drug debate in progress via PMs or is this thread waiting for a bump? |
I was hoping there would be volunteer(s) to be debaters. If not, I'll ask someone soon.
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Vampyromaniac
Joined: 08 Feb 2008
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| Posted: Sun Jun 24, 2012 5:15 am Post subject: |
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I think some people have implicitly volunteered (myself included), if that counts.
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BlueTornado
Joined: 12 Mar 2008
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| Posted: Sun Jun 24, 2012 5:23 am Post subject: |
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I'd also like to join. I have plenty of things to discuss, and I'd like to finally state my point of view on such topics.
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bclare
Joined: 21 Jun 2008
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Location: Boston
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| Posted: Sun Jun 24, 2012 8:44 pm Post subject: |
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Alright so here's the deal: I'd like to do the first debate on drug policy, but I think debates are much more interesting when people sort of disagree about things. For reference, the stated position so far, in the words of Youhas, is
| youhas wrote: | | My positions on the drug front are almost patronizingly stereotypical: "weed should probably be legal; the drinking age should probably be 18 in the U.S." |
With myself and Vampyromaniac roughly agreeing with. If anyone would like to argue against this position, please let me know and the job is yours. Otherwise we could try having 2 of those 3 of us debate and try to spell out why we hold that opinion, for the benefit of anyone who is undecided on the topic or disagrees but doesn't feel confident enough to debate publicly.
Alternatively, we could just switch to a different topic. Overpopulation was mentioned a few times, although I think we'd need more of a thesis statement to go on.
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youhas
Joined: 21 Jul 2006
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| Posted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 11:29 am Post subject: |
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| bclare wrote: | | Otherwise we could try having 2 of those 3 of us debate and try to spell out why we hold that opinion, for the benefit of anyone who is undecided on the topic or disagrees but doesn't feel confident enough to debate publicly. |
I agree that this would be a perfectly reasonable (if possibly slightly dull) sort of conversation to have about things. It would still probably be illuminating on some level - "oh, we both agree that Drug X should be decriminalized, and that Drug Y should be verboten, but have differing opinions on Drug Z; interesting" - though not nearly as interesting as a dialogue between two truly opposed sides.
| bclare wrote: | | Alternatively, we could just switch to a different topic. Overpopulation was mentioned a few times, although I think we'd need more of a thesis statement to go on. |
I dunno if this is a thesis statement as such, but I'd hate for this thread to wither on the vine, so I'll go ahead and toss some initial potential statements out there to chum the waters:
"Overpopulation is a scourge upon our planet. Areas of the world which are already among the most stressed, where a single season of crop struggles can yield disastrous famines, are the ones that have the highest birth rates. And globally, the wealthier nations of the world have the ability to more than provide for these impoverished nations, but they instead shamefully give a pittance to these poor countries and deploy their wealth elsewhere. We should take one of myriad actions - food drops, transferrence of drip-irrigation knowledge, condom dispersal, anything - to help the more needy among us around the globe."
"Overpopulation is not nearly the problem it once was. As certain ideas are transmitted across the globe - most notably, the suffrage and independence of women - the birth rates in 'problem countries' are plummeting. Simply handing out bushels of surplus crops and hoping for the best is a stopgap solution at best, especially in countries where military juntas still rule the land and snap up all incoming deliveries, to make the populace beholden to them. Only by liberating their populaces - via regime change, exposure to 'western world' ideas, or whatever other tact - can true, core changes be enacted. Besides, an individual growing up in a developing country does not consume a fraction of the resources that an individual growing up in first-world luxury does; a local law concerning lawn-care maintenance in Phoenix saves ten times the resources that air-dropping crates of potatoes into Somalia ever could."
That's a hastily-written-but-plausible starting point, if anyone's interested. (There are tons of sidebars one could branch off into - "are genetically-modified foods going to cause unknown ills for us?" vs. "genetically-modified foods increase crop yields so much, enabling us to feed so many more the world over" - but I'll spare everyone those details for now.)
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augthebomb 
Joined: 20 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 4:22 am Post subject: |
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| I'd love to join in on the philosophical topics. Like B.O.D., I'm only 16 and I don't have enough life experience to properly weigh on concrete and economic topics. |
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bclare
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ready2rock
Joined: 25 Aug 2007
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| Posted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 6:23 am Post subject: |
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I vote we go ahead for the sake of getting this idea's feet off the ground.
And yes, lol at the "life experience" needed for philosophical discussions.
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youhas
Joined: 21 Jul 2006
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Location: Santa Clara, CA
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| Posted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 11:52 am Post subject: |
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Did I misunderstand something here? Folks weren't saying that they were too young to have philosophical discussions; they were saying that they understand that philosophical discussions were fine, but concrete and real-world economic topics are often difficult to discuss if you haven't lived through them. (I can't even count how many 19-year-old on-paper libertarians magically changed into 30-year-old real-world liberals once they had to deal with "technical parameters of their job" and "issues around finding health care on your own".) And I can supremely respect that viewpoint. To wit:
Hey, sixteen-year-old youhas: what are your opinions on housing subsidy tax credits? "Well, I've only ever lived with my parents, obviously. I've never lived on my own, or had to deal with a dick landlord nickel-and-diming me over services, or having to take a day off work (and lose eight hours of take-home pay) because that's the only time when the plumber from my apartment complex could stop by to work on anything. Or anything, really. So I pretty much know fuck-all about the question you're asking. I could make up an answer, to pretend that I'm all-knowingly awesome and super-competent and all that shit, but I'd prefer not to." Fair enough! That seems reasonable to me.
I absolutely respect anyone who possesses an "I don't think I have enough real-world data to opine about this question" viewpoint. I find it super-refreshing, and orders of magnitude higher quality than "I just cavalierly assume everyone in existence had an upbringing exactly like my own, and extrapolate that they all had similar hopes and dreams and circumstances, and will now tell everyone how the world should work accordingly!" pablum. (As opposed to touchie-feely philosophical questions, where pretty much anyone with a pulse can probably successfully spar on the topic at hand.)
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ready2rock
Joined: 25 Aug 2007
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| Posted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 4:32 pm Post subject: |
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As usual, youhas is right, and I misread the post, I apologize. I shouldn't have made that mistake since I think I said something similar earlier in this thread.
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bclare
Joined: 21 Jun 2008
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| Posted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 4:41 pm Post subject: |
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| youhas wrote: | | (As opposed to touchie-feely philosophical questions, where pretty much anyone with a pulse can probably successfully spar on the topic at hand.) |
This is the part that I sort of disagree with. I think "life experience" can have a pretty strong effect on a person's philosophical opinions also. I do greatly respect when people can admit that they're not able to adequately discuss something.
Also, +1 youhas point for using "pablum" in a sentence.
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youhas
Joined: 21 Jul 2006
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| Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2012 8:46 pm Post subject: |
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| bclare wrote: | | youhas wrote: | | (As opposed to touchie-feely philosophical questions, where pretty much anyone with a pulse can probably successfully spar on the topic at hand.) |
This is the part that I sort of disagree with. I think "life experience" can have a pretty strong effect on a person's philosophical opinions also. |
Fair enough; I'm pretty sure I overstated my point in my haste. There's no doubt that personal experience can sharply affect myriad facets of one's personal philosophies. I guess I just take a slightly dimmer view of them because with other topics, you often have the wherewithal to cite statistics, or point out the results of studies, or otherwise reference something concrete towards advancing your argument. With something more abstract - "what do you think of utilitarianism?" - useful and interesting conversation can be had, but I feel like there's almost nil chance of actually concluding anything. (I will also accept "those discussions are just as awesome as any other, youhas; you just happen to like them less" as a reasonable conclusion to draw.  )
| bclare wrote: | | Also, +1 youhas point for using "pablum" in a sentence. |
youhas: come for the wall of text; stay for the off-kilter verbiage! We should make a drinking game out of this or something.
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augthebomb
Joined: 20 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Fri Jul 06, 2012 5:01 am Post subject: |
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Alright.
I think we should start with a general question about drugs that will eventually delve us further into the topic.
Should marijuana be legalized?
Do you tend to look at the possible positive effects or possible negative effects of drugs at first glance? |
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