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CyanCrayon86948 
Joined: 21 Dec 2019
Posts: 96
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 Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2022 11:50 am Post subject: Emulator? |
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| I've had a few people ask whether you can submit emulator scores or not. I told them no, but I wanted to know what the official stance was. |
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2003041
Joined: 30 Jan 2008
Posts: 1384
Location: MA
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| Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2022 1:22 pm Post subject: |
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It's an interesting thing that I've never considered until this came up. I would think no partially because there's no way to know without video if someone slowed down the track as they played and also emulation for PS2 and up isn't the best accuracy wise. The modded question doesn't really come into play imo since GH3PC has had modding for a while as well as being able to make customs in general since GH2.
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Cabanon
Joined: 29 Oct 2007
Posts: 6464
Location: Quebec, Canada
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| Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2022 11:03 am Post subject: |
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no and for obvious reasons.
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iAMhorribl3 
Joined: 29 Sep 2012
Posts: 111
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2022 11:27 pm Post subject: |
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Do FGFC's still count if they're done on emulator?
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2003041
Joined: 30 Jan 2008
Posts: 1384
Location: MA
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| Posted: Sat Jun 18, 2022 12:18 am Post subject: |
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If we're going by the logic train established then no because any emualtor scores wouldn't count.
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iAMhorribl3
Joined: 29 Sep 2012
Posts: 111
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Sat Jun 18, 2022 1:21 am Post subject: |
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That's what I figured also!
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thardwardy
Joined: 27 Oct 2021
Posts: 1
Location: Queensland, Australia
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| Posted: Sat Jun 18, 2022 2:41 am Post subject: |
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The way I see it, they should be counted for full series as long as playing in the emulator doesn't change the engine (ex. rb3 on rpsc3 being different to real hardware) and there's sufficient enough proof that it was run at full speed.
Harder to moderate, sure, but I feel people shouldn't be denied the title just because they don't own 17-22 year old hardware. |
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2003041
Joined: 30 Jan 2008
Posts: 1384
Location: MA
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| Posted: Sat Jun 18, 2022 3:00 am Post subject: |
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| thardwardy wrote: | The way I see it, they should be counted for full series as long as playing in the emulator doesn't change the engine (ex. rb3 on rpsc3 being different to real hardware) and there's sufficient enough proof that it was run at full speed.
Harder to moderate, sure, but I feel people shouldn't be denied the title just because they don't own 17-22 year old hardware. |
You already need decade old plus hardware to play the games anyways because of the controllers. Plus you can always get PS2s for cheap and they have every game except WoR.
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LocalH
Joined: 30 Oct 2006
Posts: 1400
Location: MiloHax
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| Posted: Sat Jun 18, 2022 3:49 pm Post subject: |
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I feel like there needs to be an overhaul of the rules for what is considered "legitimate", anyway. The biggest consideration in whether a run should be legit falls into two factors:
1) Is the game running at the original framerate?
2) Is the core engine unchanged? Would the same input always result in the same score?
I think we should allow cosmetic or quality-of-life mods to games as still "counting" competitively. For example, out of all of the mods we added to Guitar Hero II Deluxe, there's only one I can actually think of that would be a total non-starter - the strum limit removal. Everything else we did (that didn't involve chart bugfixes or changes) was a pure quality-of-life improvement (adjustable hyperspeed, focus mode, note streak popups, support for displaying song author, note streak counter, fixed the hopo restart bug) or is clearly called out when in use (for example, song speed modifier that only allows speedups in quickplay, with an appropriately proportional note window - this only adds challenge, as the note window gets tighter as the speed increases, GH3 speedmod style).
If a version of GH2DX were made *without* the strum limit fix, and with confirmed original charts (we could, in fact, with some limitations in the song list presentation, also include the 360 exclusive songs, and the 360 versions of PS2 charts where there are differences), I'd actually push for it to count the same as the vanilla game in terms of legitimacy. There exists precedent in other competitive scenes where specific modified ROMs are either allowed, or enforced, due to benefits that it provides.
80s could work the same. A version could be provided with both Wrathchild versions, the same QoL improvements from GH2DX, and be the "definitive" competitive version. We could even put both on the same disc and have a one stop shop for GH2/80s gameplay.
Nobody seems to care about distributing modified ISOs of old games like this anyway. We don't really fuck with anything newer than RB3 anyway in terms of mods, and our RB mods are all distributed as patches to the base game. GH2 is more practical to distribute a mod as a full ISO, though - GH2 never received an update with a patch ARK on 360, and GH2 PS2 never had that mechanism to begin with.
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JohnnyGrey
Joined: 26 Apr 2006
Posts: 2965
Location: Geneva/DeKalb Illinois
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| Posted: Mon Jun 20, 2022 3:39 am Post subject: |
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If you're not getting top 10 scores on competitive games/difficulties, or feel like you're getting things easier than you should, then I don't think it should really be any problem. At least, from a perspective from someone who has mainly used SH as a nice permanent place to keep track of stuff (in the past couple years anyway). If you aren't intentionally using it to make the chart/gameplay itself easier, then no harm done.
In a case you get any contentious big accomplishment or high score, being honest in the comment would be a good idea, and or possibly just documenting the accomplishment in a YouTube vid instead.
To tag on what LocalH was saying, since DLC is no longer available for purchase, and not everyone can get into modified consoles, if it's the only way for people to access the DLC/games, I don't see what the big deal is.
Also, stuff like modified ISOs with different hyperspeed are a bit iffy, but again as long as you're clear about any modifications/possible discrepancies, a good amount of people won't care.
(I'm still curious how much HS in GH1 would help me. Lol
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Cabanon
Joined: 29 Oct 2007
Posts: 6464
Location: Quebec, Canada
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| Posted: Mon Jun 20, 2022 2:02 pm Post subject: |
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problem is the line is so fine between all of this, that it'd be near impossible to verify or authenticate such thing. I believe it's more of a keep it simple rule than anything.
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LocalH
Joined: 30 Oct 2006
Posts: 1400
Location: MiloHax
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| Posted: Mon Jun 20, 2022 4:31 pm Post subject: |
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There are imperfect methods that could help verify runs as being on such a "legitimate" build. We have decent control over UI placement nowadays, we could have some sort of in-game display of some kinda to help determine that it is indeed our build. We can't, unfortunately, prevent people from editing the dta scripts (but few people have advanced dta scripting knowledge at this point). Other competitive scenes have ways to make similar things work, depending on what's relevant to their game.
It also goes without saying that mods are perfectly acceptable to use for practice. Countless games have practice-focused modded versions that the top players use all the time.
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JohnnyGrey
Joined: 26 Apr 2006
Posts: 2965
Location: Geneva/DeKalb Illinois
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| Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2022 1:56 am Post subject: |
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| Cabanon wrote: | | problem is the line is so fine between all of this, that it'd be near impossible to verify or authenticate such thing. I believe it's more of a keep it simple rule than anything. |
That's a good point.
Yeah realistically, by now, if you're committed enough to start using this site 12+ years past its prime, then authenticity isn't really asking too much.
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Cabanon
Joined: 29 Oct 2007
Posts: 6464
Location: Quebec, Canada
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| Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2022 1:40 pm Post subject: |
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yeah I mean, if you're dumb enough to cheat the game or use anything other than the original version of the game and post score that you clearly know is frowned upon, shame on you. also, don't claim it's been done legit.
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TheLonging
Joined: 07 Apr 2008
Posts: 4191
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| Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2022 8:16 am Post subject: |
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If it's not for submitting scores to the site, then emulators to me seem perfectly fine. I don't see the big deal about it. I trust any high-level player, heck, any decently-proven player, to be honest and legitimate about a GH/RB emulator if they're going for FGFCs. If you're submitting scores to this site though, emulators are 100% a no-go.
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