| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
Antitheist
Joined: 21 Jan 2011
Posts: 6
|
 Posted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 11:29 pm Post subject: |
 |
|
One question I'd like to hear a reasonable answer to, which I've never gotten from anyone I've asked, is this:
How can you possibly believe that, even assuming that god exists, the bible you're reading is the same as the one from 2000 years ago? As far as I know, none of the original scriptures have been found, and the Roman catholics controlled what was printed in the bible for many years. I just think it's a little naive to think that at no point in history have the contents of the bible been altered for some sort of personal gain or something. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
PiemanLK
Joined: 03 Dec 2007
Posts: 4712
Location: /export/home
|
| Posted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 11:36 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| LlamaYip wrote: | | PiemanLK wrote: | | [citation needed] |
| ready2rock wrote: | | For more about faith, I highly suggest you read this chapter from CS Lewis. I know a lot of people are providing links right now, but this explains the concept of faith very well: link. |
Also, I don't think you need a citation to determine that humans aren't perfect... |
That's about the concept of faith, not proof that God "offers help on the test". And of course humans aren't perfect. I fail to see the relevancy of that.
| ready2rock wrote: | | PiemanLK wrote: | | ready2rock wrote: | | The main flaw that I see in your analogy is your implication that God offers no help on the test and expects us to do everything perfectly, both of which are entirely false. |
[citation needed] |
Prayer and forgiveness, respectively |
Prayer has proven to be a nice placebo effect but doesn't really have a basis in the reality of things actually happening. But that discrepancy is easily explained away by claiming things that are prayed for that don't happen are "part of God's plan". Which we are too imperfect to understand but somehow we understand it enough to say it must have been part of God's plan. Because explaining the unexplainable isn't enough of a fallacy itself.
Forgiveness is a great idea, but it's subject to the same odd selectiveness as prayer is. Also, you need to ask for it. God doesn't come to you. If you don't know what you're doing wrong, how do you know when to ask for it?
| LlamaYip wrote: | | You seem to have forgotten that we're speaking within the realms of Christian belief. Nice job |
I'm holding my arguments up to the standards of the real world here. Christian belief is subject to that as much as anything else. I mean if the argument was contained to the Christian belief, why would I even question God testing our faith? Because that makes sense too when you stick your head in the sand and ignore questions about it.
_________________
[quote=''''Otend'''']Id come up with a long post, but Pieman said what we are all thinking, as usual[/quote]
[quote=''''youhas'''']EDIT TO ADD: Hey, post #3000! Neat! I will eagerly anticipate my set of ScoreHero-branded steak knives within six to eight weeks.[/quote]
 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
LlamaYip 
Joined: 23 Dec 2008
Posts: 3151
Location: Chicago, IL
|
| Posted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 11:41 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Antitheist wrote: | One question I'd like to hear a reasonable answer to, which I've never gotten from anyone I've asked, is this:
How can you possibly believe that, even assuming that god exists, the bible you're reading is the same as the one from 2000 years ago? As far as I know, none of the original scriptures have been found, and the Roman catholics controlled what was printed in the bible for many years. I just think it's a little naive to think that at no point in history have the contents of the bible been altered for some sort of personal gain or something. |
Dead Sea Scrolls....
EDIT: My mood and health have taken turns for the worse atm (not like terminally or anything lol) and I'm really not feeling well so despite me REALLY wanting to write an essay in response to crap (sarcasm) Ill just wait a bit... :P
_________________
My Youtube | My Accomplishments | Total Hard FCs: 723/725 | My Stream | GenericName 
Latest Hard FC: Through the Fire and Flames GH3 | GH1: 47/47 GH2: 62/64 GH80S: 30/30 GH3: 70/70 GHA: 41/41 GHWT: 86/86 GHM: 49/49 GHSH: 48/48 GH5: 85/85 GHVH: 47/47 BH: 65/65 GHWOR: 93/93
Last edited by LlamaYip on Sun Jan 23, 2011 12:42 am; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ready2rock
Joined: 25 Aug 2007
Posts: 1738
Location: somewhere in this vast universe
|
| Posted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 12:15 am Post subject: |
|
|
| PiemanLK wrote: | Prayer has proven to be a nice placebo effect but doesn't really have a basis in the reality of things actually happening. But that discrepancy is easily explained away by claiming things that are prayed for that don't happen are "part of God's plan". Which we are too imperfect to understand but somehow we understand it enough to say it must have been part of God's plan. Because explaining the unexplainable isn't enough of a fallacy itself.
Forgiveness is a great idea, but it's subject to the same odd selectiveness as prayer is. Also, you need to ask for it. God doesn't come to you. If you don't know what you're doing wrong, how do you know when to ask for it? |
Personally, I don't think that I really started to become a better Christian until I really started praying for it. Simply wanting or trying to be better wasn't helping me as much as prayer did. I know, placebo, etc., and I'm not imagining for one second that this will convince you of anything, this is just what I've experienced. Beyond that, other people have posted about prayer earlier, so I won't get any further into it now.
To me, forgiveness (in the way I'm using it atm) means asking for help and repenting after you knowingly did something wrong/sinful. Ignorance is a different matter entirely. Also, show me where it says in the bible that humans must be absolutely perfect and virtuous through all of our lives or we go to hell.
Also, read that chapter that I linked. I'm pretty sure it talks about both of these things a lot better than I can explain them.
_________________
 
 
REREAD YOUR POSTS BEFORE YOU SUBMIT THEM!!!
Posts that win: this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this whole thread, this, these, this, this |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
qays1991
Joined: 31 Jan 2008
Posts: 434
Location: UK
|
| Posted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 10:15 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I'm gonna say one thing. The truth is, with why the life is a test question. I'm sure there's a reason. I mean I believe there's truly a reason for everything. But I have to admit even I don't know the answer, but I'm sure someone else does? And if not, maybe it's just one of those things we're not really supposed to know, and if not now, maybe in the future, or never. Who knows. I mean, I though it's a fact that we don't even use half of our brains?
http://www.neilslade.com/Papers/how.html
_________________
Its QAYS and not gays!
(It sucks that I'll never be able to play my own custom  ) |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Antitheist
Joined: 21 Jan 2011
Posts: 6
|
| Posted: Mon Jan 24, 2011 7:39 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| LlamaYip wrote: | | Dead Sea Scrolls.... |
Correct me if I'm wrong, but none of those documents are the original copies, and all were written before the birth of Jesus and therefore only pertain to the jewish faith. They have no relevancy to your specifically christian beliefs.
Not to mention the fact that apparently there are many inconsistencies between these documents and the bible that had been available before their discovery. That really wasn't an answer to my question, at all, never mind one definitive enough for you to act like it's such an obvious explanation. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
PiemanLK
Joined: 03 Dec 2007
Posts: 4712
Location: /export/home
|
| Posted: Mon Jan 24, 2011 10:27 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| ready2rock wrote: | | Personally, I don't think that I really started to become a better Christian until I really started praying for it. Simply wanting or trying to be better wasn't helping me as much as prayer did. I know, placebo, etc., and I'm not imagining for one second that this will convince you of anything, this is just what I've experienced. Beyond that, other people have posted about prayer earlier, so I won't get any further into it now. |
Okay then? I don't see why you posted it if you don't think it would convince me.
| ready2rock wrote: | | Ignorance is a different matter entirely. |
Do explain it a bit, I'm curious.
| ready2rock wrote: | | Also, show me where it says in the bible that humans must be absolutely perfect and virtuous through all of our lives or we go to hell. |
It doesn't, no. I was wrong. Although Adam and Eve did get on God's bad side fairly fast for simply eating a fruit he told them not to. It sure doesn't sound like God tolerates very much disobeying of his commands if eating the wrong thing pisses him off.
| ready2rock wrote: | | Also, read that chapter that I linked. I'm pretty sure it talks about both of these things a lot better than I can explain them. |
I don't really understand it to be honest; maybe I just need to read it again.
_________________
[quote=''''Otend'''']Id come up with a long post, but Pieman said what we are all thinking, as usual[/quote]
[quote=''''youhas'''']EDIT TO ADD: Hey, post #3000! Neat! I will eagerly anticipate my set of ScoreHero-branded steak knives within six to eight weeks.[/quote]
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ready2rock
Joined: 25 Aug 2007
Posts: 1738
Location: somewhere in this vast universe
|
| Posted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 2:16 am Post subject: |
|
|
-I posted it mainly to give you an idea of where I'm coming from.
-I don't know enough about Christian docterine to answer this fully, but it's just common sense that someone knowingly breaking a rule and someone breaking a rule that they had no idea existed are dealt with completely differently.
-On Adam and Eve: Well, if you were told that if you resisted the temptation to do 1 thing, then you would live a long and prosperous life, and you proceeded to do that one thing, what would you expect to happen?
-It's possible that it could be more difficult to read out of context of the rest of the book (not to imply that you need to read the whole thing, just a possiblility)
_________________
REREAD YOUR POSTS BEFORE YOU SUBMIT THEM!!!
Posts that win: this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this whole thread, this, these, this, this |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Pas26
Joined: 04 Oct 2008
Posts: 3664
Location: Québec, Canada
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
PiemanLK
Joined: 03 Dec 2007
Posts: 4712
Location: /export/home
|
| Posted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 4:13 am Post subject: |
|
|
| ready2rock wrote: | | -On Adam and Eve: Well, if you were told that if you resisted the temptation to do 1 thing, then you would live a long and prosperous life, and you proceeded to do that one thing, what would you expect to happen? |
Not live a long and prosperous life. When an offer like that is made, there isn't usually a negative to going against it other than losing the chance to live a prosperous life. No one has ever kicked me out of anywhere because I didn't buy a lottery ticket. But Adam and Eve not only got booted from the Garden of Eden, God punished everyone born after them no matter how long after the fact they are born, for something completely unrelated to them. Punishing generations of people - or rather, everyone on Earth - for disobeying a command from God that seems of no real importance in the first place, seems very very lopsided.
Of course, this is the same God that's supposed to forgive people and not have wrath.
_________________
[quote=''''Otend'''']Id come up with a long post, but Pieman said what we are all thinking, as usual[/quote]
[quote=''''youhas'''']EDIT TO ADD: Hey, post #3000! Neat! I will eagerly anticipate my set of ScoreHero-branded steak knives within six to eight weeks.[/quote]
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Brockbfball1563
Joined: 29 Apr 2007
Posts: 3245
Location: Rochester, NH
|
| Posted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 4:35 am Post subject: |
|
|
Very interesting. I'm baffled at how we never learned about Socrates in college Philosphy 
_________________
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ferretgod
Joined: 02 Oct 2007
Posts: 276
|
| Posted: Wed Jan 26, 2011 1:10 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Brockbfball1563 wrote: |
Very interesting. I'm baffled at how we never learned about Socrates in college Philosphy |
Weird, because I remember reading about this specifically in college philosophy.
_________________
I couldn't resist lulz
"I am not so shocked that Obama was given the Nobel Peace Prize without any accomplishments to his name, because America gave him the White House based on the same credentials." ~Newt Gingrich
"To preserve our independence, we must not let our rulers load us with perpetual debt." - Thomas Jefferson
"What was wrong with communism wasn't aberrant leadership, it was communism" - William F. Buckley, Jr. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ferretgod
Joined: 02 Oct 2007
Posts: 276
|
| Posted: Wed Jan 26, 2011 1:11 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Brockbfball1563 wrote: |
Very interesting. I'm baffled at how we never learned about Socrates in college Philosphy |
Weird, because I remember reading about this specifically in college philosophy.
You should suggest it because it is very interesting indeed
_________________
I couldn't resist lulz
"I am not so shocked that Obama was given the Nobel Peace Prize without any accomplishments to his name, because America gave him the White House based on the same credentials." ~Newt Gingrich
"To preserve our independence, we must not let our rulers load us with perpetual debt." - Thomas Jefferson
"What was wrong with communism wasn't aberrant leadership, it was communism" - William F. Buckley, Jr. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
LlamaYip
Joined: 23 Dec 2008
Posts: 3151
Location: Chicago, IL
|
| Posted: Wed Jan 26, 2011 4:29 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Antitheist wrote: | | Correct me if I'm wrong, but none of those documents are the original copies, and all were written before the birth of Jesus and therefore only pertain to the jewish faith. They have no relevancy to your specifically christian beliefs. |
This is really intriguing that you decided to say this. Now, at first I was going to start and personally attack this specific statement, but instead I'll link you to the Wikipedia entry on Typology, because instead of just mention the blatant relationships between Jewish scripture and Christianity such as Jesus' fulfillment of the Nevi'im and his reiteration of Mosiac, Deuterocanonical and Levitic law, Im presenting this disappointly brief explanation on the true intricacies of parallelisms between Jewish tradition and 'Specific Christian Faith' (as you called it, and when I say faith, I actually mean faith, in the terms of rite and the like).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Typology (Choose the 3rd option, I've been having a bit of trouble with links today for some reason)
| Antitheist wrote: | | Not to mention the fact that apparently there are many inconsistencies between these documents and the bible that had been available before their discovery. That really wasn't an answer to my question, at all, never mind one definitive enough for you to act like it's such an obvious explanation. |
It wasn't really me acting that it was a definitive answer, but a brief explanation to cover some of the ground and honestly there wasn't anything else for me to say...
_________________
My Youtube | My Accomplishments | Total Hard FCs: 723/725 | My Stream | GenericName
Latest Hard FC: Through the Fire and Flames GH3 | GH1: 47/47 GH2: 62/64 GH80S: 30/30 GH3: 70/70 GHA: 41/41 GHWT: 86/86 GHM: 49/49 GHSH: 48/48 GH5: 85/85 GHVH: 47/47 BH: 65/65 GHWOR: 93/93
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ready2rock
Joined: 25 Aug 2007
Posts: 1738
Location: somewhere in this vast universe
|
| Posted: Wed Jan 26, 2011 5:02 am Post subject: |
|
|
Well, if God says not to do this one thing, I would think that it's pretty important, even if it doesn't seem so at the time.
(Important note: I have not read the Bible, maybe I'll start by looking into this, especially since it's at the very beginning (which, as we all know, is a very good place to start  ))
_________________
REREAD YOUR POSTS BEFORE YOU SUBMIT THEM!!!
Posts that win: this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this whole thread, this, these, this, this |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
Copyright © 2006-2025 ScoreHero, LLC
|
Powered by phpBB
|
![Inbox [ Login ]](templates/subSilver/images/icon_mini_message.gif){kind=icon}
Inbox [ Login ]
Search
Memberlist
Profile
Log in
