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qays1991
Joined: 31 Jan 2008
Posts: 434
Location: UK
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 Posted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 6:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Fugitive wrote: | | GesterX wrote: | On the Christianity figures
The "world Christianity count" is calculated through..... number of baptisms. Many non-believers would be counted as Christian due to them being baptised by their parents (myself and Adolf Hitler included). |
I pointed that out already, but I was completely ignored. I'm figured into statistics as a Catholic. :P
It's a pain in the ass to deconvert though, as I mentioned in the other post. I'll probably do it eventually though just on principle.
| qays1991 wrote: | For the extremists, they may have their morals, but some of them think what they believe is right... as in how to say... they read a verse in one glance and might think ok I must do that, when in actual fact you're not supposed to blablabla, I would say they do have their morals, but in a sense they believe in God so much and they really believe God told them to do that whatsoever because the verses say so and they do it. But what they really fail to see is that God doesn't really say that because it doesn't make morally sense and er...
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So you're saying the material in your holy book doesn't make moral sense until you take it non-literally?
Just goes to show that morals are becoming more an more westernized and less religious, thankfully. I do appreciate the fact that you know your holy book is immoral though. |
I would say it does make moral sense. Some people just misinterpret the verses and do it that way. If you're talking about war and Jihad that is.
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Fugitive 
Joined: 20 Aug 2007
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| Posted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 6:24 pm Post subject: |
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So what's the right way to interpret this?
SURA 4.56: (As for) those who disbelieve in Our communications, We shall make them enter fire; so oft as their skins are thoroughly burned, We will change them for other skins, that they may taste the chastisement; surely Allah is Mighty, Wise.
and this?
4.89 : They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah's way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper. |
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ready2rock
Joined: 25 Aug 2007
Posts: 1738
Location: somewhere in this vast universe
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| Posted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 6:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Fugitive wrote: |
Source: http://i.imgur.com/kpb5A.png
And please for the love of your god do not say correlation doesn't imply causation unless you can give me an alternate cause for the statistics. It's very clear that in this cause correlation DOES imply causation. |
I'll take a crack at it for this one. I think it has to do much more with region than anything else. If you take a look at the top 10 or so, you'll see that almost all of them (edit: all of them) come from the south. Not to bash the south, but I think that people from the south tend to have misinformed opinions on a lot of things, including religion. On all of the states past Texas, I don't see any strong correlation between percent religion and any of the other statistics.
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Fugitive
Joined: 20 Aug 2007
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| Posted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 6:30 pm Post subject: |
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| ready2rock wrote: | | Fugitive wrote: |
Source: http://i.imgur.com/kpb5A.png
And please for the love of your god do not say correlation doesn't imply causation unless you can give me an alternate cause for the statistics. It's very clear that in this cause correlation DOES imply causation. |
I'll take a crack at it for this one. I think it has to do much more with region than anything else. If you take a look at the top 10 or so, you'll see that almost all of them (edit: all of them) come from the south. Not to bash the south, but I think that people from the south tend to have misinformed opinions on a lot of things, including religion. On all of the states past Texas, I don't see any strong correlation between percent religion and any of the other statistics. |
Agreed to an extent, but I would argue the south has a misinformed opinion on a lot of things BECAUSE of religion, that then therefore misinforms their opinion on everything else.
Last edited by Fugitive on Thu Feb 03, 2011 8:39 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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qays1991
Joined: 31 Jan 2008
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Location: UK
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| Posted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 6:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Fugitive wrote: | So what's the right way to interpret this?
SURA 4.56: (As for) those who disbelieve in Our communications, We shall make them enter fire; so oft as their skins are thoroughly burned, We will change them for other skins, that they may taste the chastisement; surely Allah is Mighty, Wise.
and this?
4.89 : They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah's way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper. |
I must admit you make a good challenge at challenging the Quran.
Regarding 4:89, read this my friend
http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?pagename=IslamOnline-English-Ask_Scholar/FatwaE/FatwaE&cid=1119503544502
http://www.bismikaallahuma.org/archives/2005/quranic-commentary-on-sura-an-nissa-489/
As for 4:56, I would say because as Muslims we are to believe what the Holy Quran says as 4:56 and 4:57 in Surah 4 is meant to give a small description of what the afterlife looks like
http://www.submission.org/suras/sura4.html
And regarding 4:56, this part is interesting http://www.islamicsearchcenter.com/archive/2009/08/surah-an-nisa-456-–-pain-receptors-in-skin-the-ayat-that-showed-prof-tegatat-tejasen-the-right-path/
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GenericName
Joined: 21 Feb 2009
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| Posted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 6:47 pm Post subject: |
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http://i.imgur.com/kpb5A.png
I really like that link. It shows that Louisiana sucks. Hooray for second lowest average IQ and highest murder rate!
Also, even being a Catholic myself, I do understand that Christianity isn't really as "popular" as it once was. I think that eventually a lot of the people who have no idea what their religion is actually all about will leave it, and then we will be left with *gasp* people who understand and abide by their religion, and Christianity and/or Catholicism won't be seen as badly as it is now by a lot of people.
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this1neguy
Joined: 19 Aug 2007
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| Posted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 6:49 pm Post subject: |
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qays, all I'm getting from reading those pages you linked is a huge contradiction. Essentially it sounds like the commentators are saying "well it's not okay to kill people, but it's okay to kill people if they don't like your religion." That doesn't sound like much of an improvement.
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ready2rock
Joined: 25 Aug 2007
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| Posted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 6:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Fugitive wrote: | | ready2rock wrote: | | Fugitive wrote: |
Source: http://i.imgur.com/kpb5A.png
And please for the love of your god do not say correlation doesn't imply causation unless you can give me an alternate cause for the statistics. It's very clear that in this cause correlation DOES imply causation. |
I'll take a crack at it for this one. I think it has to do much more with region than anything else. If you take a look at the top 10 or so, you'll see that almost all of them (edit: all of them) come from the south. Not to bash the south, but I think that people from the south tend to have misinformed opinions on a lot of things, including religion. On all of the states past Texas, I don't see any strong correlation between percent religion and any of the other statistics. |
Agreed to an extent, but I would argue the south has a misinformed opinion on a lot of things BECAUSE of religion, that then therefore misinforms their opinion on everything else. |
Then that's not the fault of religion, that's the fault of people preaching the religion. Blaming religion in that case is like saying that we should do away with schools in a city because in one school, the teachers are bad.
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qays1991
Joined: 31 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 7:05 pm Post subject: |
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| this1neguy wrote: | | qays, all I'm getting from reading those pages you linked is a huge contradiction. Essentially it sounds like the commentators are saying "well it's not okay to kill people, but it's okay to kill people if they don't like your religion." That doesn't sound like much of an improvement. |
Which part
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this1neguy
Joined: 19 Aug 2007
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| Posted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 7:13 pm Post subject: |
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| qays1991 wrote: | | this1neguy wrote: | | qays, all I'm getting from reading those pages you linked is a huge contradiction. Essentially it sounds like the commentators are saying "well it's not okay to kill people, but it's okay to kill people if they don't like your religion." That doesn't sound like much of an improvement. |
Which part |
"It is the hypocrites being referred to (not apostates as insinuated by Christians) and in dealing with those who pretend to be Muslims on the outside, but are the enemies of Islam in reality. Such hypocrites are the ones who would aid the pagans against the Muslims." (from the second link, and regarding 4:89.)
4:56 is talking about Hell, so I can understand that Fugitive somewhat took it out of context, but at the same time it seems as though eternal damnation is a bit much for simply not believing in the same religion as you do.
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Fugitive
Joined: 20 Aug 2007
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| Posted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 7:16 pm Post subject: |
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| ready2rock wrote: | | Fugitive wrote: | | ready2rock wrote: | | Fugitive wrote: |
Source: http://i.imgur.com/kpb5A.png
And please for the love of your god do not say correlation doesn't imply causation unless you can give me an alternate cause for the statistics. It's very clear that in this cause correlation DOES imply causation. |
I'll take a crack at it for this one. I think it has to do much more with region than anything else. If you take a look at the top 10 or so, you'll see that almost all of them (edit: all of them) come from the south. Not to bash the south, but I think that people from the south tend to have misinformed opinions on a lot of things, including religion. On all of the states past Texas, I don't see any strong correlation between percent religion and any of the other statistics. |
Agreed to an extent, but I would argue the south has a misinformed opinion on a lot of things BECAUSE of religion, that then therefore misinforms their opinion on everything else. |
Then that's not the fault of religion, that's the fault of people preaching the religion. Blaming religion in that case is like saying that we should do away with schools in a city because in one school, the teachers are bad. |
That's a false analogy because I clearly said that I blame the religion, not those preaching it.
EDIT:
| this1neguy wrote: | | 4:56 is talking about Hell, so I can understand that Fugitive somewhat took it out of context, but at the same time it seems as though eternal damnation is a bit much for simply not believing in the same religion as you do. |
Sorry if anything is out of context. I am not at all familiar with the Qu'ran in the slightest and just found a few quotes online. All I knew was that it does clearly say that killing non believes is the way to go. I do agree, however, that hell should be a punishment for no one (not even Hitler, thank you very much Godwin) and that any religion that preaches of a hell I cannot get behind. |
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Fhdra
Joined: 02 Dec 2009
Posts: 532
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| Posted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 8:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Fugitive wrote: | | Is this just religious people not following their religion? |
This is very true when it comes to the United States. My problem with tests to see whether a country has more religious people or not is that anyone can claim they are Christian or Muslim etc. That is something that frustrates me, because the USA is heavy in crime, and is also heavy in 'Christians.' This makes religion look bad. I am certain however that more than half of these people that claim to be Christian never said more than 1/2 a prayer in their lifetime, and have never gone to church or any worship service since they were baptized.
Let us not confuse proclaimed Christians with people who actually try and strive to live a Christian lifestyle. I believe crime in America has a deeper root than religion, more likely caused by an inefficient government...
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Fugitive
Joined: 20 Aug 2007
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| Posted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 8:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Fhdra wrote: | | Fugitive wrote: | | Is this just religious people not following their religion? |
This is very true when it comes to the United States. My problem with tests to see whether a country has more religious people or not is that anyone can claim they are Christian or Muslim etc. That is something that frustrates me, because the USA is heavy in crime, and is also heavy in 'Christians.' This makes religion look bad. I am certain however that more than half of these people that claim to be Christian never said more than 1/2 a prayer in their lifetime, and have never gone to church or any worship service since they were baptized.
Let us not confuse proclaimed Christians with people who actually try and strive to live a Christian lifestyle. I believe crime in America has a deeper root than religion, more likely caused by an inefficient government... |
Just curious then: why do you think it is that people who claim to be Christian don't follow modern morals (don't murder, don't steal, don't get teen pregnant, don't rape) as well as people who claim to be atheist? If the answer were truly that they just weren't following their religion then wouldn't their actions be at the same rate as atheists? |
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Fhdra
Joined: 02 Dec 2009
Posts: 532
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| Posted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 8:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Fugitive wrote: | | Fhdra wrote: | | Fugitive wrote: | | Is this just religious people not following their religion? |
This is very true when it comes to the United States. My problem with tests to see whether a country has more religious people or not is that anyone can claim they are Christian or Muslim etc. That is something that frustrates me, because the USA is heavy in crime, and is also heavy in 'Christians.' This makes religion look bad. I am certain however that more than half of these people that claim to be Christian never said more than 1/2 a prayer in their lifetime, and have never gone to church or any worship service since they were baptized.
Let us not confuse proclaimed Christians with people who actually try and strive to live a Christian lifestyle. I believe crime in America has a deeper root than religion, more likely caused by an inefficient government... |
Just curious then: why do you think it is that people who claim to be Christian don't follow modern morals (don't murder, don't steal, don't get teen pregnant, don't rape) as well as people who claim to be atheist? If the answer were truly that they just weren't following their religion then wouldn't their actions be at the same rate as atheists? |
I suppose I should clarify I do not think personal morality is based off of whether you are religious or not. I think it is from your upbringing, and a majority of the people who do commit such criminal acts have had a bad upbringing, regardless of whether or not they claim to be Christian or not...
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Fugitive
Joined: 20 Aug 2007
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| Posted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 9:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Fhdra wrote: | | Fugitive wrote: |
Just curious then: why do you think it is that people who claim to be Christian don't follow modern morals (don't murder, don't steal, don't get teen pregnant, don't rape) as well as people who claim to be atheist? If the answer were truly that they just weren't following their religion then wouldn't their actions be at the same rate as atheists? |
I suppose I should clarify I do not think personal morality is based off of whether you are religious or not. I think it is from your upbringing, and a majority of the people who do commit such criminal acts have had a bad upbringing, regardless of whether or not they claim to be Christian or not... |
So then upbringing in religious states and countries is poorer than in atheistic countries and that's the cause of those statistics?
Even if that's true, which I don't think it is until I see proof, that would mean religion is the cause of poor upbringing and therefore the ultimate cause of those statistics anyway. |
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