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bjwdestroyer 
Joined: 30 Jun 2007
Posts: 4785
Location: I have more posts than you, who cares where I am.
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 Posted: Thu Apr 30, 2009 10:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Samson007 wrote: | | Strykerx wrote: | | bjwdestroyer wrote: | | The same can be said for games like Jumper, etc.[/img] |
Hey beating Jumper is my proudest moment I'll ever have, don't belittle it  |
Yeah, I pretty much specialize in games that are meant to be un-fairly hard. IWBTG and the Jumper series are the only 2 that ever really made me work.
Getting 100% completion on Jumper 2 was one of the hardest things I have ever done. Same can be said for my IWBTG impossible mode runs............saying these games don't count is bull shit. Why would you say they need to stop being mentioned? Because they are designed to be ridiculously hard? Well this is the hardest game ever thread, not the "really hard, but not too hard" thread. so yeah...... |
First of all, I'm not belittling any of your accomplishments.
Think of it like this: if I were to design a game where beating the boss is impossible due to him having infinite life, would this be the hardest game ever? If I design a game where level design is based solely on silly traps that require you to invest a ridiculous amount of time in discovering each one in order to get to the next level, is this the hardest game ever? One should be able to gain skill in a game outside the simple idea of memorizing everything that it has to offer. If such is not the case, then Minesweeper should be on the list when the grid and mines are maxed out. Not to mention, there are many other "clearly impossible," or rather, "difficulty silly" games out there that would clearly triumph over pretty much all games in that stupid Kotaku list--even titles like IWBTG and Jumper would be dominated by the ferocity of such games.
Obviously, the definition of difficulty is very subjective, but if we allow it to include virtually anything, then all lists would have a pile of garbage, and primarily, user-created bullshit. Might as well chart a 20 minute long GHTune where it's constant 4,000 NPS strumming with no Star Power. Hardest chart ever.
| Rawrspoon wrote: | | Well then, bjw, I'm thinking the Guitar Hero series shouldn't be on there because TTFAF was added just to fuck with people with its (then considered) impossible song. |
Two responses to this:
1) As ridiculous as TtFaF was, it was still charted based on a real guitar song that has been played by a real guitarist, so it's still very much in the realm of human possibility. When the communities did claim it as being impossible though (well, the FC that is), we didn't have enough time to understand just how silly the timing window really was in that game. Of course, where do we draw this fine line? Well, I would respond with the fact that in GH you can learn more about the game and gain skill; you become a better player. One could further respond with, well, how is muscle memory any different than memory itself of such games like IWBTG? Well, let's say we have a great IWBTG player and a great GH player. If I give the IWBTG player a brand new stage that he has never seen before, and if I give the GH player a brand new chart that he has never seen before, well, the former will struggle due to lacking any knowledge of the stage while the latter will probably be fine due to experience with the games.
2) Once again, it depends on what criteria our list is based on. Are we talking simply passing the game, or full on perfecting everything that it has to offer. This list is clearly not based on the latter, but if it were, then we would have one hell of a different list.
Anyway, this is all just my opinion, no need to punch me because of it.
Last edited by bjwdestroyer on Mon Dec 24, 2012 12:18 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Qarx
Joined: 24 Feb 2008
Posts: 3285
Location: Fort Wayne, Indiana
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| Posted: Fri May 01, 2009 12:29 am Post subject: |
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| bjwdestroyer wrote: | | Obviously, the definition of difficulty is very subjective, but if we allow it to include virtually anything, then all lists would have a pile of garbage, and primarily, user-created bullshit. Might as well chart a 20 minute long GHTune where it's constant 4,000 NPS strumming with no Star Power. Hardest chart ever. |
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zMBUm7hWudo
There you go, hardest song ever; to emphasize your point.
Your example with IWBTG players compared to GH players was good. A new stage will kill any IWBTG players because your survival is based on whether or not you know what's coming. Games like GH, on the other hand, will prepare you for what's ahead, and build your skill overall.
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GuitarHailz 
Joined: 11 Jun 2007
Posts: 4910
Location: Austin, Texas
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| Posted: Fri May 01, 2009 12:43 am Post subject: |
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| Qarx wrote: | | bjwdestroyer wrote: | | Obviously, the definition of difficulty is very subjective, but if we allow it to include virtually anything, then all lists would have a pile of garbage, and primarily, user-created bullshit. Might as well chart a 20 minute long GHTune where it's constant 4,000 NPS strumming with no Star Power. Hardest chart ever. |
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zMBUm7hWudo
There you go, hardest song ever; to emphasize your point.
Your example with IWBTG players compared to GH players was good. A new stage will kill any IWBTG players because your survival is based on whether or not you know what's coming. Games like GH, on the other hand, will prepare you for what's ahead, and build your skill overall. |
Yes, but using that one song as ammo somebody could argue that GH was the hardest game ever.
When user-created content gets thrown into the mix, that completely redefines what we're talking about and shouldn't be considered at all. I could make any game "the hardest game ever" if I wanted to. Infinite health on an enemy, an impossible obstacle, whatever. THAT'S the point bjw was trying to make. Nobody is arguing that beating these crazy-hard games isn't impressive, but including hacks in a "hardest games list" doesn't make sense, because they could do that shit to any game to make it impossible.
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Rawrspoon
Joined: 04 Sep 2008
Posts: 1597
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| Posted: Fri May 01, 2009 12:47 am Post subject: |
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| Even so, Mushi shouldn't be considered in that case because the bosses were designed to be theoretically impossible. Of course, players proved them wrong. |
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Qarx
Joined: 24 Feb 2008
Posts: 3285
Location: Fort Wayne, Indiana
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| Posted: Fri May 01, 2009 12:57 am Post subject: |
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| GuitarHailz wrote: | | Qarx wrote: | | bjwdestroyer wrote: | | Obviously, the definition of difficulty is very subjective, but if we allow it to include virtually anything, then all lists would have a pile of garbage, and primarily, user-created bullshit. Might as well chart a 20 minute long GHTune where it's constant 4,000 NPS strumming with no Star Power. Hardest chart ever. |
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zMBUm7hWudo
There you go, hardest song ever; to emphasize your point.
Your example with IWBTG players compared to GH players was good. A new stage will kill any IWBTG players because your survival is based on whether or not you know what's coming. Games like GH, on the other hand, will prepare you for what's ahead, and build your skill overall. |
Yes, but using that one song as ammo somebody could argue that GH was the hardest game ever.
When user-created content gets thrown into the mix, that completely redefines what we're talking about and shouldn't be considered at all. I could make any game "the hardest game ever" if I wanted to. Infinite health on an enemy, an impossible obstacle, whatever. THAT'S the point bjw was trying to make. Nobody is arguing that beating these crazy-hard games isn't impressive, but including hacks in a "hardest games list" doesn't make sense, because they could do that shit to any game to make it impossible. |
Exactly. I was posting the "hardest" chart I could find just to show that user-created content shouldn't count. It's far too easy to make the "hardest" anything, and thus only professional (such as Harmonix, Neversoft, Game Freak, Square Enix, etc.) content should count.
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bjwdestroyer
Joined: 30 Jun 2007
Posts: 4785
Location: I have more posts than you, who cares where I am.
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| Posted: Fri May 01, 2009 1:03 am Post subject: |
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| Rawrspoon wrote: | | Even so, Mushi shouldn't be considered in that case because the bosses were designed to be theoretically impossible. Of course, players proved them wrong. |
The bosses weren't designed with the intention of making them theoretically impossible, not to mention, only the last boss can be argued as being impossible. I don't really understand what you mean by "players proved them wrong" though. There was nothing to prove. |
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reikonkeiri
Joined: 01 May 2007
Posts: 1838
Location: Fort Wayne, Indiana
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| Posted: Fri May 01, 2009 2:00 am Post subject: |
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has anyone here played Vortex for the SNES? It may just be because I played it when I was very young, but I couldn't get past the first level of that game without cheats XD.
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toymachine 
Joined: 30 Oct 2006
Posts: 9629
Location: Toronto
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| Posted: Fri May 01, 2009 6:12 pm Post subject: |
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Syobon isn't that hard
I mean even I passed it
same with Lost Levels.
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Qarx
Joined: 24 Feb 2008
Posts: 3285
Location: Fort Wayne, Indiana
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| Posted: Fri May 01, 2009 7:18 pm Post subject: |
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| toymachine wrote: | Syobon isn't that hard
I mean even I passed it
same with Lost Levels. |
(you mean Super Mario Bros.: The Lost Levels, right?)
I beat Mario: The Lost Levels, too, but I did it on the SNES release: Super Mario All-Stars, and I died quite a lot. So much so, the save system actually came in handy; guess I'm not really all that good  .
I still find it hard to believe Fantasy Zone and Gradius series didn't make the list. They both have that annoying feature of touching just about anything and dying, as well as dying in one hit (well, Fantasy Zone, as well as Super Fantasy Zone let you touch the floors, and there were no walls, but dying and losing all your items basically meant you were screwed fighting the boss, and getting touched by anything still kills you. I have yet to beat the game >_>).
I spent a few days (not continuously =p) on Gradius, and I couldn't even beat the first level, not to mention a friend told me that there was this boss in Gradius III that shot so many bullets that you basically had to have a huge number of upgrades and fire enough bullets and such that the game experienced slowdown and you could more easily dodge the bullets.
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Davers
Joined: 10 Oct 2007
Posts: 4619
Location: In a van down by the river
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| Posted: Fri May 01, 2009 7:33 pm Post subject: |
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Snake's Revenge for the NES is pretty freakin' rough. The boss in the Train is so hard to beat. I finally just gave up and that's not something I do with video games when I'm trying to beat them.
Btw, this is basically Metal Gear 2 for the NES just under the name "Snake's Revenge". |
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Qarx
Joined: 24 Feb 2008
Posts: 3285
Location: Fort Wayne, Indiana
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| Posted: Fri May 01, 2009 7:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Davers wrote: | Snake's Revenge for the NES is pretty freakin' rough. The boss in the Train is so hard to beat. I finally just gave up and that's not something I do with video games when I'm trying to beat them.
Btw, this is basically Metal Gear 2 for the NES just under the name "Snake's Revenge". |
Yup. I learned a lot from this nerd about the Metal Gear series. Did you know Hideo Kojima didn't make the NES release of Metal Gear?
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freakinalex
Joined: 03 May 2007
Posts: 878
Location: Huntsville, TX
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| Posted: Fri May 01, 2009 9:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Qarx wrote: | | Davers wrote: | Snake's Revenge for the NES is pretty freakin' rough. The boss in the Train is so hard to beat. I finally just gave up and that's not something I do with video games when I'm trying to beat them.
Btw, this is basically Metal Gear 2 for the NES just under the name "Snake's Revenge". |
Yup. I learned a lot from this nerd about the Metal Gear series. Did you know Hideo Kojima didn't make the NES release of Metal Gear? |
I FEEL ASLEEP!
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guitarroker
Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Posts: 1993
Location: Iceland
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| Posted: Fri May 01, 2009 11:22 pm Post subject: |
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| freakinalex wrote: | | Qarx wrote: | | Davers wrote: | Snake's Revenge for the NES is pretty freakin' rough. The boss in the Train is so hard to beat. I finally just gave up and that's not something I do with video games when I'm trying to beat them.
Btw, this is basically Metal Gear 2 for the NES just under the name "Snake's Revenge". |
Yup. I learned a lot from this nerd about the Metal Gear series. Did you know Hideo Kojima didn't make the NES release of Metal Gear? |
I FEEL ASLEEP! |
UH-OH! THE TRUCK HAVE STARTED TO MOVE!!
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Davers
Joined: 10 Oct 2007
Posts: 4619
Location: In a van down by the river
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| Posted: Fri May 01, 2009 11:27 pm Post subject: |
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| guitarroker wrote: |
UH-OH! THE TRUCK HAVE STARTED TO MOVE!! |
Lol.....Metal Gear for the NES was just plain awesome. Hard too but once you beat it and know where everything is, you can basically go through it without dying. |
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StevenStewberry
Joined: 19 Jan 2008
Posts: 730
Location: Ohio
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| Posted: Sun May 03, 2009 8:57 pm Post subject: |
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| As a person who just purchased the Mega Man Anniversary Collection, I must say, the games become rage-inducing once you get to the Dr. Wily Levels. Haven't even played 3-8 yet. |
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