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theslayermon
Joined: 01 Jan 2009
Posts: 416
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 Posted: Sun Jul 18, 2010 11:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Yewb wrote: | Witwix is deliberately keeping this alive because
a) He doesn't want people to stop talking about it so he can feel special for FCing it every time this is mentioned
or
b) He can laugh his ass off every time these threads get bumped.
I'm gonna go with B, given it's Witwix. |
could be both
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ShadoWolf
Joined: 21 Jul 2008
Posts: 2034
Location: Slough, England
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| Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 12:26 am Post subject: |
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| Davers wrote: |
It has been mathematically proven that it's impossible |
Maybe I don't understand how the timing window works as well as I should, but assuming you strum exactly on time, in the centre of the timing window for every note in the streak, what would make it impossible?
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  | PiemanLK wrote: | | Look, someone actually had to point out that singing "solo" meant singing alone. This is why we allow people to work registers at McDonald's that can't make change and it makes me want to run my face under a belt sander. For the love of tits, how can you be on the internet in 2012 and not think "maybe I can Google this word I should have learned in first grade before making a thread about it". |
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theslayermon
Joined: 01 Jan 2009
Posts: 416
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| Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 12:38 am Post subject: |
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| ShadoWolf wrote: | | Davers wrote: |
It has been mathematically proven that it's impossible |
Maybe I don't understand how the timing window works as well as I should, but assuming you strum exactly on time, in the centre of the timing window for every note in the streak, what would make it impossible? |
as i understand it the game has a method of stopping double strums that makes it so you cant strum 2 notes within a certain time of each other. when the notes you are trying to play get close enough together this time is bigger than the time between notes so if you hit one early then next one you cant hit as early and so on until the next one isnt allowed in the timing window because of the double strum protection
if this is total crap then sorry but i think i am pretty right
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Yewb 
Joined: 10 Jan 2008
Posts: 3020
Location: Plymouth, UK
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| Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 12:45 am Post subject: |
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| theslayermon wrote: | | ShadoWolf wrote: | | Davers wrote: |
It has been mathematically proven that it's impossible |
Maybe I don't understand how the timing window works as well as I should, but assuming you strum exactly on time, in the centre of the timing window for every note in the streak, what would make it impossible? |
as i understand it the game has a method of stopping double strums that makes it so you cant strum 2 notes within a certain time of each other. when the notes you are trying to play get close enough together this time is bigger than the time between notes so if you hit one early then next one you cant hit as early and so on until the next one isnt allowed in the timing window because of the double strum protection
if this is total crap then sorry but i think i am pretty right |
This is pretty much bang-on, yeah. After a certain speed - the exact speed is totally unknown, but it's thought to be a very little slower than Trogdor's strumming - the game stops recognising a proportion of strums, and it does it in an unpredictable way that varies with your speed. This only happens on pre-GH3 GH games and the Rock Band series.
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| expertwin wrote: | | ShadoWolf wrote: | | expertwin wrote: | | I just want to, you know, get my name out there. BTW, it updates every Thursday, Friday, and Saturday. Was just the first two, decided to do Saturdays as well. |
Serious advice now: No-one likes indecision in their work, so find what you like that you're even remotely good at, and stick with it. Don't flit from one thing to another, because that just smacks of a large lack of determination and drive. And people don't like you for that, and won't remember you for it. I mean, I get that you have a plucky spirit and a willingness to try new things, but there's a limit, man. |
I might knock it down to just Thursday and Friday. |
| JOE2210 wrote: | | Leave me alone, I have been drinking and your made up words mean nothing to me. |
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ace5993
Joined: 30 Mar 2008
Posts: 1920
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| Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 1:09 am Post subject: |
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| Davers wrote: | | prebensoerensen wrote: | | Davers wrote: | | Trogdor has yet to be even proven possible on NTSC (solo + the next section together), then I claim it as impossible until proven otherwise. |
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m181fJtfO0M |
This doesn't prove anything. Gold stars will show up on NTSC even if you FC'd it on PAL.
It has been mathematically proven that it's impossible. And thus far, the math pans out as NOONE has hit it yet. Witwix himself won't even say what region he FC'd Trogdor on and that makes me convinced it was on PAL but wants people to believe it was on NTSC. If it was on NTSC, why cause the confusion??
Also, Yewb, I think NTSC FGFC does need to be changed. I see your point. People do go to lengths on getting the FC on PAL so they can have a true FGFC. I retract my statement as claiming it as a FGFC but it still needs to be something. lol |
What is all this crap about witwix doing it on PAL? He didn't do it at all. I talked to him and he said he did it on NTSC. Therefore, he's a liar (gold stars don't prove anything). Its no coincidence witxix has no proof of anything. People have fcd the solo on NTSC but FCing the song IS impossible. Also if the strum limit was known about at the time he wouldn't have pulled this hoax. People have talked about hitting 2 notes with one strum which is what he claimed to have done but until I see proof of one person hitting two notes with one strum anywhere in the strumming I'm going to say that's not possible either. |
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ShadoWolf
Joined: 21 Jul 2008
Posts: 2034
Location: Slough, England
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| Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 1:45 am Post subject: |
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| Yewb wrote: | | theslayermon wrote: | | ShadoWolf wrote: | | Davers wrote: |
It has been mathematically proven that it's impossible |
Maybe I don't understand how the timing window works as well as I should, but assuming you strum exactly on time, in the centre of the timing window for every note in the streak, what would make it impossible? |
as i understand it the game has a method of stopping double strums that makes it so you cant strum 2 notes within a certain time of each other. when the notes you are trying to play get close enough together this time is bigger than the time between notes so if you hit one early then next one you cant hit as early and so on until the next one isnt allowed in the timing window because of the double strum protection
if this is total crap then sorry but i think i am pretty right |
This is pretty much bang-on, yeah. After a certain speed - the exact speed is totally unknown, but it's thought to be a very little slower than Trogdor's strumming - the game stops recognising a proportion of strums, and it does it in an unpredictable way that varies with your speed. This only happens on pre-GH3 GH games and the Rock Band series. |
Ah yeah, forgot about overstrum protection. That's where I was getting confused.
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| PiemanLK wrote: | | Look, someone actually had to point out that singing "solo" meant singing alone. This is why we allow people to work registers at McDonald's that can't make change and it makes me want to run my face under a belt sander. For the love of tits, how can you be on the internet in 2012 and not think "maybe I can Google this word I should have learned in first grade before making a thread about it". |
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Bj0rn 
Joined: 31 Aug 2007
Posts: 522
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
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| Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 1:46 am Post subject: |
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There are a lot of angles to look from in this debate. I personally stand pretty neutral, but I do feel opposed to the "proven impossible" standpoint.
| Yewb wrote: | | This is pretty much bang-on, yeah. After a certain speed - the exact speed is totally unknown, but it's thought to be a very little slower than Trogdor's strumming - the game stops recognising a proportion of strums, and it does it in an unpredictable way that varies with your speed. This only happens on pre-GH3 GH games and the Rock Band series. |
This, as far as I know, is true. Then can anyone please provide the "math" that strike has done to me? It may truly be impossible, but how can you prove it without knowing exactly how tight the strum limit is? I see numbers like 16 NPS and 17 NPS being thrown around. Do we even know if it is in a matter of seconds and not beats? If you play in practice on a slower speed, the strum limit follows and so does the timing window (from my experience; this is unlike neversoft games). Now, of course I don't know if this is entirely true either, but technically that would mean that if it's impossible on full speed, it is impossible on slowest too. Maybe something to look into.
| Pas26 wrote: | If witwix really FCed it by hitting two notes in one strum, why doesn't he talk about it at all? You can't deny that witwix's actions are extremely fishy (Like saying that he FCed TTFAF, but wait for a reFC with hands (for PiP) to put the vid up, yet suck at it both in PFO and on stream).
Oh well, I'll mess with trogdor in practice and get back. |
This isn't much, but I guess he touches the subject here: http://www.scorehero.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=878138#878138. But I agree, you never know with that guy. The idea of getting two notes in one strum is intriguing. I wouldn't mind seeing that be investigated further.
I'm in agreement that the strum limit is different between versions. And I think it makes most sense if PS2 PAL is the easier one while PS2 NTSC and 360 both regions are absolutely equal. That's based on the 50 HZ vs 60 HZ difference, like Yewb said earlier. In that case Shon's 360 PAL FC gains significance.
I can go on like this, suggesting ways to prove its possibility (other than the obvious "simply try to FC troggy on NTSC"). Sadly proving anything's IMpossibility is infinitely harder. I'd say most things point towards it being impossible, but that doesn't mean we should give up.
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Yusuke 
Joined: 04 Nov 2006
Posts: 1663
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| Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 1:56 am Post subject: |
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| Piso wrote: | Witwix FC'd trogdor long before any "strum limit" arguments were ever brought to the table, or the idea that playing PAL may make the song remotely easier. As well, his stats screen picture is in colour.
Witwix won't say what region he FC'd the song on because I know him, and it's just him being a douchebag to you folks because he can be. He obviously FC'd it on his continent specific region, NTSC, and that's why he'd responds the way he does. To be a douchebag. |
Everyone seems to be ignoring the whole color thing. Get over yourselves guys.
Also I agree witwix is a douchebag. as someone who has talked with him 1 on 1 when RB1 came out over the interwebs, i can tell you Piso's statement of "he's doing this to be a douchebag" is most definitely accurate.
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yksi-kaksi-kolme
Joined: 22 Jun 2008
Posts: 2803
Location: philly skramzzzz
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| Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 2:03 am Post subject: |
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| Yusuke wrote: | | Piso wrote: | Witwix FC'd trogdor long before any "strum limit" arguments were ever brought to the table, or the idea that playing PAL may make the song remotely easier. As well, his stats screen picture is in colour.
Witwix won't say what region he FC'd the song on because I know him, and it's just him being a douchebag to you folks because he can be. He obviously FC'd it on his continent specific region, NTSC, and that's why he'd responds the way he does. To be a douchebag. |
Everyone seems to be ignoring the whole color thing. Get over yourselves guys.
Also I agree witwix is a douchebag. as someone who has talked with him 1 on 1 when RB1 came out over the interwebs, i can tell you Piso's statement of "he's doing this to be a douchebag" is most definitely accurate. |
I don't understand the color argument. There are some TVs that can play PAL in color, aren't there? I mean mine doesn't but I thought there were some that do...
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ace5993
Joined: 30 Mar 2008
Posts: 1920
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| Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 2:07 am Post subject: |
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| yksi-kaksi-kolme wrote: | | Yusuke wrote: | | Piso wrote: | Witwix FC'd trogdor long before any "strum limit" arguments were ever brought to the table, or the idea that playing PAL may make the song remotely easier. As well, his stats screen picture is in colour.
Witwix won't say what region he FC'd the song on because I know him, and it's just him being a douchebag to you folks because he can be. He obviously FC'd it on his continent specific region, NTSC, and that's why he'd responds the way he does. To be a douchebag. |
Everyone seems to be ignoring the whole color thing. Get over yourselves guys.
Also I agree witwix is a douchebag. as someone who has talked with him 1 on 1 when RB1 came out over the interwebs, i can tell you Piso's statement of "he's doing this to be a douchebag" is most definitely accurate. |
I don't understand the color argument. There are some TVs that can play PAL in color, aren't there? I mean mine doesn't but I thought there were some that do... |
Of course there are. The color argument is utterly pointless. And besides as I said before witwix didn't even fc it. Bots ftw? |
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Fug
Joined: 08 Jul 2007
Posts: 2188
Location: Grand Rapids, MI
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| Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 2:23 am Post subject: |
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| yksi-kaksi-kolme wrote: | | Yusuke wrote: | | Piso wrote: | Witwix FC'd trogdor long before any "strum limit" arguments were ever brought to the table, or the idea that playing PAL may make the song remotely easier. As well, his stats screen picture is in colour.
Witwix won't say what region he FC'd the song on because I know him, and it's just him being a douchebag to you folks because he can be. He obviously FC'd it on his continent specific region, NTSC, and that's why he'd responds the way he does. To be a douchebag. |
Everyone seems to be ignoring the whole color thing. Get over yourselves guys.
Also I agree witwix is a douchebag. as someone who has talked with him 1 on 1 when RB1 came out over the interwebs, i can tell you Piso's statement of "he's doing this to be a douchebag" is most definitely accurate. |
I don't understand the color argument. There are some TVs that can play PAL in color, aren't there? I mean mine doesn't but I thought there were some that do... |
The TV I use for PAL plays in color. My FC score pic proves it so yeah, no point in arguing about the color of his FC pic.
| ace5993 wrote: | | People have talked about hitting 2 notes with one strum which is what he claimed to have done but until I see proof of one person hitting two notes with one strum anywhere in the strumming I'm going to say that's not possible either. |
psx (at least I think it was psx) told me to try out the 2 strums for 1 note thing on stream a while back. I strummed half the speed of the solo and ended up getting a -2 on the solo + O sustain after about 15 minutes of grinding so there's definitely some potential in that method. I'm not saying it's possible to FC with it, but it's not something we can completely ignore ace.
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Pas26
Joined: 04 Oct 2008
Posts: 3664
Location: Québec, Canada
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AdamHero
Joined: 09 Nov 2007
Posts: 1245
Location: Vermont
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| Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 3:20 am Post subject: |
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| prebensoerensen wrote: | | Davers wrote: | | Trogdor has yet to be even proven possible on NTSC (solo + the next section together), then I claim it as impossible until proven otherwise. |
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m181fJtfO0M |
that totally proves its possible on ntsc.
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4th ever DWDTG FC on November 27, 2010.
[2:32:10 PM] Alex (MoosieHD): Honestly spamming adds difficulty
[2:32:10 PM] Alex (MoosieHD): Methods are way easier |
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JScrip
Joined: 28 Sep 2007
Posts: 71
Location: NTSC-Land
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| Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 4:31 am Post subject: |
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Didn't Witwix claim to have FC'ed Jordan, Hangar 18, BatH, and Trogdor, for the first time, all in the same day? It seems as though this isn't something that would "suddenly" happen to a NTSC user. If I recall correctly, he was working on Jordan at the time, so for the sake of argument, we could consider Jordan and Hangar 18 plausible. From here though, his claim that he randomly FC'ed two songs with insanely difficult strumming sections within hours of each other just doesn't add up. If anything, it seems as though he gained PAL access that day. (I personally don't buy it, as I trust Ace's story.)
Also, there were some tight races for the "First Expert FGFC of Any Game" at the time. Strike and F4 were very close to FCing GH1, and Strike (and possibly someone else) was quite close to FCing GH80's. A FGFC of GH2 was something that several amazing players (Hellashes, k3v227, Lo7, etc.) had gone for, but failed to do, strumming being the major obstacle. If there was anything "believable" to fake at the time, it would have been a GH2 FGFC.
More on topic: Consider this. There have been some VERY quick fretting sections that have been hit in GH2 with a dualshock controller. I'm hoping a dualshock/360 controller user could answer a couple questions for me.
-Does there seem to be an in-game limit on pushing the buttons? (Does a "strum limit" go into effect with a dual shock?)
-Is there any player out there who could even approach mashing the same button at 17.7 nps? (I would be absolutely amazed if someone could do 12 nps.) |
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THABEAST721
Joined: 26 Dec 2007
Posts: 2000
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| Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 6:27 am Post subject: |
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| JScrip wrote: | | -Is there any player out there who could even approach mashing the same button at 17.7 nps? (I would be absolutely amazed if someone could do 12 nps.) |
No way anyone could press one button that fast, but there is a glitch on dual shock that might work. I only know of people doing it on GH3 though. Let's say you are holding the Blue down on a dual shock. If a stream of blue notes comes up while you do this, then you can press green, red, or yellow to register as blue strums. It's how people pass songs like DWDTG on GH3, but I'm not sure if it works on games earlier than GH3.
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